Pretender Balance Mod

[Scott Hebert]

]Question is, who is going to forge those items for the 2222222 pretender? I have to do some downloading before I can look at the magiboost.xls file, but I don't your low rainbow can actually forge the items necessary to get close to all 5's.

With 2S + 2E:

Forge a Starshine Skullcap. Go to 3S.
Forge a Crystal Coin. Go to 4S.
Forge a Ring of Sorcery. Go to 5S + 3 in all Sorcery paths.
Forge a Ring of Wizardry. Go to 3 in all Elemental paths, 4 in all Sorcery Paths, and stay at 5 Astral.
Forge a Staff of Elemental Mastery. Go to 4 in all Elemental paths.

That's a way to get to at _least_ 4 in all paths starting in 2 in all paths... of course, that's a VERY specific set of forges you have to make. From here, you can remove the Helm for a Fire Helm or Air Helm (go to 5 Air or Fire), Earth boots for 5 Earth, Robe of the Sea for 5 Water, Thistle Mace for 5 Nature, Skullface for 5 Death, and I'm not sure if you want to worry about Blood, but there are several options.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
They aren't slow at searching, a rainbow 2 mage gives you about 75%-80% of all magic sites in a province every other turn. Level 3 and four sites are very rare.

I'm aware of that. However, 'every other turn' is too slow. That's half the rate of expansion, and that's assuming you have a searcher for each army you have. Much easier is simply to stay in your capital and cast site-searching spells, which DO search at the rate of your expansion.

That pretender isn't usable in multiplayer, since even an astral 1 mage will be likely to kill her. You also can't count on forge staying up for more than a few turns at most.

That's if an Astral 1 mage is ever in combat with her. It's not like I'm planning to send that Pretender into combat. The only way I see it likely that you're attacking my Pretender with Astral Mages is if you're storming my capital, in which case I would think that I've already lost.

She's also no less survivable than a Human Rainbow that has 3 Astral. Or do you normally raise your Astral Magic on your Rainbows to the 6 range as well?

The Forge thing, though, I grant you. But that argument can be said for any Global. Also, the faster you get Forge up, the longer it _should_ Last, due to research constraints. Therefore, IF you want Forge up, you'd be better off with a Pretender with 4E instead of a Rainbow-2, IMO.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
She's also no less survivable than a Human Rainbow that has 3 Astral. Or do you normally raise your Astral Magic on your Rainbows to the 6 range as well?

No need to, you just have script your rainbow for (Returnning) since he's not supposed to see battles. The only path I'd be tempted to raise above 3 is earth, to get WR immunity without having to rely on a Robe of Shadows.

In my experience, it's much harder to kill a mage who knows how to protect himself and doesn't want to fight, than a Great Mother.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:50: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Well the crone has FOUR misc slots for one thing. That dosen't suck. Of course the Freak Lord would be wholly superior to the Archmage then, having THREE misc slots and trample, etc. You could tweak here and there... give the Archmage dominion 2 to start maybe.

Except that Trampling often sucks because the unit won't use other attacks (such as ultra-powerful swords / axes) unless the opponent is too large to trample. This is one reason I've stopped using the Earth Mother, and I certainly wouldn't want a fragile little Freak trampling. There's still the 3 misc slots, true, and more importantly the Freak's Fear ability, higher defense and precision, and Last but not least, 3 encumbrance vice the Archmage's 5, compared to the archmage's only advantage, movement 28 vice 16.

When you look at it that way (Fear, 3 misc, better stats, better encumbrance) the Freak is a bargain at 10 points more than the Archmage. But you can't raise the price on the Freaklord, because already no one takes him, so ....

[PvK]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
They aren't slow at searching, a rainbow 2 mage gives you about 75%-80% of all magic sites in a province every other turn. Level 3 and four sites are very rare.

I'm aware of that. However, 'every other turn' is too slow. That's half the rate of expansion, and that's assuming you have a searcher for each army you have. Much easier is simply to stay in your capital and cast site-searching spells, which DO search at the rate of your expansion.

---

So by the time you have two conquering armies, you already have about 14-16 mages casting site searching spells every turn, using about 30 gems/slaves consisting of all types per turn? I'm impressed...

quote:

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That pretender isn't usable in multiplayer, since even an astral 1 mage will be likely to kill her. You also can't count on forge staying up for more than a few turns at most.

That's if an Astral 1 mage is ever in combat with her. It's not like I'm planning to send that Pretender into combat. The only way I see it likely that you're attacking my Pretender with Astral Mages is if you're storming my capital, in which case I would think that I've already lost.

---

So you use the Great Mother as a stay-at-home rainbow mage, because of her improved ability to resist assassination?

PvK

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by PvK:
So by the time you have two conquering armies, you already have about 14-16 mages casting site searching spells every turn, using about 30 gems/slaves consisting of all types per turn? I'm impressed...

Not exactly. When I do this, I would have 3-4 mages casting the searching spells that my national mages can cast. This doesn't search as well as a Rainbow, true, but I'm also guaranteed to be able to make full use of most if not all of the gems I _do_ find.

So you use the Great Mother as a stay-at-home rainbow mage, because of her improved ability to resist assassination?

Survivability is an issue, but besides that, she's cheaper, which is the entire problem. The difference in cost between an E4/S3/N4 Great Mother and an E4/S3/N4 Human Pretender is not significant enough for me to take the Human Pretender, when you consider that the Human Pretender has a 2 lower _base_ Dominion. The balance point is Dominion 5, where the difference in cost is only 7 points. Anything higher helps the Great Mother, who is _also_ the person who gains the most benefits from that Dominion. I see this as a balance issue.

Another interesting case is that of the Daughter of the Land, who makes perhaps the best 'giant rainbow', because she generates her own Clams and she has a higher base Dominion.

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
Survivability is an issue, but besides that, she's cheaper, which is the entire problem. The difference in cost between an E4/S3/N4 Great Mother and an E4/S3/N4 Human Pretender is not significant enough for me to take the Human Pretender, when you consider that the Human Pretender has a 2 lower _base_ Dominion. The balance point is Dominion 5, where the difference in cost is only 7 points. Anything higher helps the Great Mother, who is _also_ the person who gains the most benefits from that Dominion. I see this as a balance issue.

You didn't post numbers about Earth Mother with those magics versus a human pretender most suited to the task, propably some kind of a druid for initial Nature magic. Also, I would be interested to see how Nagas compare. Could you please post the differences (in points) between the three?

Human pretenders really seem to be wrecked when going for fours... Maybe they should have their base magic sttarting from two, this would give them a chance to let them take four in atleast one path.