OberFuhrer, the Hobourg Special Hero!!!

Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:
Not to forget the war crimes commited by England and Amerika.

Even though the winners write history, Hiroshima was and is a warcrime.

After germany had surrendered, brittish bomber squads wiped out the whole city of Dresden, killing about 202.040 civilians, mostly women and children in the process, without reason. The war was already over.

Edit
Funny Note: Most of the english pilots have been told there was a chemical factory producing weapons of mass destruction in Dresden.

Come on, if you're going to make comments on historical issues, make some vague attempt to get your facts right.

Dresden was bombed on February 13th 1945, three months before the German surrender. Estimates of deaths are difficult to make for various reasons, but modern historians and researchers tend to range from approx 30,000 to 130,000. I've never seen a number over 200,000 except from Nazi propoganda and David Irving.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boron:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cainehill:
Not sure you can blame it on the Allies, given that Japan didn't wind up the same way.

not to forget italy , finland , bulgaria ... .
but the most important point is that 1. none of these did as evil war crimes as germany and
2. none of these nations had decent enough techs to be a real threat .

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You haven't studied your 20th century history if you think that Japan didn't commit war crimes just as evil as Germany's. The fact that it was mostly against the Chinese, Koreans, Russians and Philipines simply means that it didn't get the publicity Germany's did in the Western world.

Also I find it odd that you put Finland in the same Category as Germany, Italy, and Japan - heck, France did more to help Germany than Finland did.

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i just listed all axis

yeah you are right japan did very evil warcrimes too but what i wanted to state why they weren't "weighted" as evil as the german ones although they of course were as evil as the german ones is the following reason :
japan could have never conquered the world the maximum what japan could have done would have been perhaps conquer greater parts of china and invade australia .
while germany had on the one hand fearful weopons : me 262 , panther , king tiger ...
and the most important fact : germany was close to develop an atom bomb too and that would really have been evil since hitler would have surely used it .
so german needed to be finished earlier .

to make a dominion comparision :
if you face ermor and pangenea CW you try to finish of first ermor since they are more dangerous . same with germany and japan in world war 2

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by Boron:
to make a dominion comparision :
if you face ermor and pangenea CW you try to finish of first ermor since they are more dangerous . same with germany and japan in world war 2

Maybe Ulm and T'ien Chi would be better parallels.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Come on, if you're going to make comments on historical issues, make some vague attempt to get your facts right.

Dresden was bombed on February 13th 1945, three months before the German surrender. Estimates of deaths are difficult to make for various reasons, but modern historians and researchers tend to range from approx 30,000 to 130,000. I've never seen a number over 200,000 except from Nazi propoganda and David Irving.

Hm, before I posted this, I checked some links for information about this topic. Although the were german weppages, I doubt that any of them had any nazi background.

there were 600.000 civilians inside the city, around 300.000 bombs were dropped, und you really want to tell me there were only 30.000 casualties?

And even 3 months before germany's surrender it was clear who would win the war.

Mark, I see that you live in london, and I dont want you to understand my posting as an personal affront against english people. But this was a war, and there are soldiers on every side who enjoy doing evil. Just think about the americans in Iraque. Even though most surely have good intentions, there are black sheeps, like those in the prison.

[Blitz]

Even though the winners write history, Hiroshima was and is a warcrime.

K for the record I'm not american.

This is a classic example of rewriting history from the 21st centuty holier-than-thou hippie perspective. Couple of facts:

1) Japan started it.
2) Japan was prepared to defend the mainland to the Last man.

Given the choice of losing another god-knows-how-many americans (yeah france was gonna help, sure) in an invasion of Honshu, how can you blame them for doing what they did? It ended the war. A war the Japanese started. I'd be willing to listen to arguments that the second bomb wasn't really warranted... but give me a break. Nobody is gonna tell you war is pretty, but in the end, the responsibility for both atom bombs lies with the Japanese leaders who decided to commit their own war crime - Pearl Harbor.

[vigabrand]

Even after the second bomb was dropped, the Japanese military was still going to die to the Last man. It took intervention by the Emperor, kind of behind their backs to end the war. I recall hearing that some military hardliners tried a coup but it failed and the Emperor announced surrender, thus trumping the military. Less than a quarter of a million japanese died in those attacks, a lot less than would have died had we had to storm the beaches, and I'm not including american lives. Efforts were taken to minimize the enemy casualties, we could have dropped the bombs on Tokyo itself. It still almost didn't work. I don't recall any other countries condemning this at the time. Only decades later do the historical revisionists apply their wacked philosophies to the record. I think the decendents (and some actual living soldiers) of the soldiers who would have had to attack Japan would be offended by this nonsense. Just my two cents.

Vig

[Endoperez]

1) Japan started it.

What the fact that 'Japan started it' has to do with Hiroshima being or not being a war crime? Even if Hitler would have been mugged by a jew that would not make what he did any less evil or wrong, or minor a crime against humanity.

2) Japan was prepared to defend the mainland to the Last man.

I don't believe US and Japan would have lost more soldiers together than what died in bombs, but I don't know how powerful the bombs were *supposed* to be by the leaders of US. Maybe they thought that the less people would die in the bombs that would if a full war started.

Given the choice of losing another god-knows-how-many americans (yeah france was gonna help, sure) in an invasion of Honshu, how can you blame them for doing what they did? It ended the war. A war the Japanese started. I'd be willing to listen to arguments that the second bomb wasn't really warranted... but give me a break. Nobody is gonna tell you war is pretty, but in the end, the responsibility for both atom bombs lies with the Japanese leaders who decided to commit their own war crime - Pearl Harbor.

Pearl Harbor for a surprise attack... I can see that being 'unfair', violating (unwritten?) rules of war, but I don't remember anything that would make it a 'war crime' in the same sense as the nuclear bombs. It was, after all, military equipment they destroyed, to which USA responded by bombing cities. There is difference between soldiers and civilians.