Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!

[Boron]

Originally posted by pinko commie:
What? Tien Chi doesnt have the worst national troops!! The archers are great, the cav is decent, and even the footmen and pikemen are ok for their cost (nothing to write home about, but not utter crap). I dont see how you can say this.

The scales you suggest are for Ermor. Only Ermor or maybe Pan CW can recruit researchers without money. If you have about 100 gold a turn, you can get a MotD every now and then, but you wont be able to recruit anything else, cant build temples or labs or forts, and have not a heck of a lot to research with or even make your summons or preach. Thus you will be purely vq-based and just have to hope that your dominion will be good enough to make sure she survives. Just sounds odd to me, not much like Tien Chi at all, sounds like Ermor without the theme and the undead. But I suppose the main question is: Is it fun??

i didn't write tien chi their troops are not bad i wrote tien chi s&a . really hard to find any other nation / theme who has worse troops than tien chi s&a .

if you don't have to much bad luck in the beginning with negative events although you chose luck 3 it is fun imho .

[rabelais]

My experience with S+A has been quite different from the Boards. It rocks right out of the box.

I have had the most success going uber scales....

T1/P3/temp0/G3/L3/M1 citadel magicless nata. Sure you don't get sacred bonuses, but you don't need 'em.

Your income, while not initally fabulous, is quite adequate, your nata is easily equipable (ice swords, etc) and/or disposable.

If a nomagic nata with sacred mages makes you nervous, an Earth 4 nata works well, but them you have to be VERY careful with it. At least until the healing heroine arrives.

The citadel keeps you off the early victim list in crowded conditions, and you can get a CM every turn after very mild expansion. And the spirits fodder are invaluable.

I *do* think the S+A sacred troops need a boost, in terms of the number that can be summoned per mage turn. As it is they are not cost effective.

Also, as a pet peeve, I'm not sure why the water spirits are *POOR* amphibians... They are elemental critters, I'd think they'd get a bonus in solution!

The DoHW are actually more accessible, since a lucky MotW can summon them. The DoHF, while lovely in theory... are much too difficult to obtain.


Rabe the S+A Fan

[Endoperez]

I think that Earth 4 Nataraja dying once, or even twice, is not earthbreaking. You can still cast Summon Earthpower and Invulnerability with E3 and 2, but the fatique you gets much higher.

[tinkthank]

Boron, why do you think that S&A troops are that awful? I agree with Rabe. (Except that I play with an Earth Mother, and have much success E4 N3, now all my paths are covered but blood -- depending on map and enemies, I take T1 / Prod 1 / Growth 1 / Luck 2 / Magic 3, Dominion 7, Castle -- I have enough money for CMs, get my heroes quickly, and can recruit some troops.)

I think the troops are decent. Composite Bows are fine for 10 gold and a strat-2 move! OK they are not as good as Man, or Caelum, or Tien default, but they are decent. The rest are acceptable for what they are. Plus there are Spirits out of the box, and Demons. (I agree that getting only 1 per turn is a bummer, but I think it is balanced.)

I certainly would have to disagree that S&A national troops are the "worst".

[Boron]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Boron, why do you think that S&A troops are that awful? I agree with Rabe. (Except that I play with an Earth Mother, and have much success E4 N3, now all my paths are covered but blood -- depending on map and enemies, I take T1 / Prod 1 / Growth 1 / Luck 2 / Magic 3, Dominion 7, Castle -- I have enough money for CMs, get my heroes quickly, and can recruit some troops.)

I think the troops are decent. Composite Bows are fine for 10 gold and a strat-2 move! OK they are not as good as Man, or Caelum, or Tien default, but they are decent. The rest are acceptable for what they are. Plus there are Spirits out of the box, and Demons. (I agree that getting only 1 per turn is a bummer, but I think it is balanced.)

I certainly would have to disagree that S&A national troops are the "worst".

i only quote your post but rabes is in many ways similiar there :

first name me a nation/theme that has worse troops than tien chi s&a . the composite bows are ok and the 2 summons DoHF + DoHW . but the 2 summons are hard to get in sufficient numbers .

so now a new argument :
i have made a test : with 0 scales + watchtower you get about 155-160 starting income ( depends a bit on population sometimes you get 30500 sometimes 29800 in the start )

rabe gets with P3G3T1 H0 about 160-165 starting income .

i get about 90-95 starting income with my scales . so about 55% of rabes income .
but for that i get +240 + 240 +80 + 120 points = a "uber"vq . if i give her e.g. D5 i have access to all the nice death toys without empowering expect tartarians .


at about turn 30 due to my d3 and rabes g3 my income will be only about 45-50% of his but for that i have a "uber"vq .
and luck 3 should compensate for both of us .

so i have vq but weaker economy and rabe has good scales but slower research ( i have magic 3 ) so in research we will still be both as quick .

i still think my approach is not bad too .
it is a bit extravagant but i like it .

[tinkthank]

"Worse" national troops (although caveat: uncontextualized superlatives make NO SENSE in dominions 2, I am only doing this because it seems you want to hear something like this!)

1. Mictlan
2. Pangaia
3. Ermor

Like I said in my caveat, I don't really agree to this, because "worst" makes no sense uncontextualized, but there you go. Consider contexts, such as: Atlantis and Abysia have NO missile troops, Ctis troops have low morale, etc.

with 95 gold per turn, you may have better magic, but you have no one to do the research! You have a great vq, but do you want her to research? You can recruit a ModT per turn, as long as nothing burns down, and they are fine researchers to be sure, but that is it.

Like I said in my first post here, it seems that these scales can be applied to any nation with exactly the same degree of success; thus, it seems like
1. an odd idea to want to apply it to S&A.
2. a scary idea, because if it is good for everyone, then it is an "easy one-size-fits-all" solution, and these are notoriously inadmissable in Dom2.
Thus, I doubt its validity.

[Mardagg]

I like S&A and I dont think that it needs improvement.
I had been quite succesful in SP games with following scales:
Turmoil:1
Sloth:2
Temp:0
Growth:3
Luck:3
Magic:3

Watch Tower,Dominion 5.
Ghost King 2W,3E,4D.

My approach seems to be exactly in between Boron`s and Rabe`s
Goal is to rely completely on summoned troops/battle mage armies as fast as possible.
S&A seems to fit very well for such a tactic:
-you have several nice starting summoning spells
-you have extremely good site search abilities
-you have very strong battle mages
-you have good research right from the start,if you only recruit national mages,no troops.

For initial expansion,I have my Ghost King SC,who, if played correctly,is very strong in conquering Indie provinces(indie strength 6 or 7),starting with it at turn 3.

I didnt play a MP game with this yet though.
I guess on a crowded map,I could have difficulties if I encounter a nation with strong national troops at the start,who is able to deal with my Breath of Winter Ghost King,e.g. Jotunheim,before I get my summonings rolling.