Bards are insane!

[tinkthank]

I fail to comprehend how Boron has turned this thread into a discussion on hoarding -- Boron, stop!

No, but seriously. Tuatha has research problems, that is true, they need sages. But once they find them....

I agree that the Monk is also an exceptional unit, I love monks. I always try to buy as many monks and bards as possible.

@Duncanish: Well, a funny little man with a lute just looks out of place in a town full of lizards, or giants, or undead -- in whose ears is he going to whisper? Stealth 30 is just tough!

@Boron: I have to post this because you cannot stop talking about hoarding. I was primarily interested in the Bard as a plausible 30-stealth-haver, not as to the effectivity of Man as a nation, which is completely beside the point. Nevertheless, I can't help but to be curious. Firstly, whom would you reckon as the 5 weakest nations besides Ulm and Man? Secondly, why a weak Van besides the forced scales for LoT? I can understand comparing Lot to Van, since its mages appear to be very similarly built at first glance. (Look at the Tuatha: he has the identical stats of the Vanadrott, except that he is 10 gold more; instead of a hoof attack, he has a magical Alicorn attack, and instead of the sailing ability, he recuperates, and instead of 1 blood, he has 2 nature. I'll leave it up to you to judge if one or the other may get a better deal.) LoT has serious research problems and needs to find sages asap, but once they do, they are just as scary. And as to troops: Man lacks in absolutely nothing but tramplers. In LoT, the D.Sidhe is a really decent 35 gold sacred unit, and only Flags are cheaper than Cu Sidhe for a bless unit, and Cu are far better than flags, they are also stealthy patrollers to boot. There are any number of tactics Man can use with their very variable army. AIr and Nature as paths happen to work very synergetically with the schools one would normally research as support spells for archers. And there are bards. Sure Van has Earth, cheap randoms, and Vans/Valks, which are all great, and I think Van is one of the strongest nations out there, but I just dont think that Man is a watered down Van.
As to their effectiveness: I really dont know Man well at all, but you could try to challenge PhilDuchon to a 1on1 and let him play Man. Good luck!

[Boron]

tinkthank said:
@Boron: I have to post this because you cannot stop talking about hoarding. I was primarily interested in the Bard as a plausible 30-stealth-haver, not as to the effectivity of Man as a nation, which is completely beside the point. Nevertheless, I can't help but to be curious. Firstly, whom would you reckon as the 5 weakest nations besides Ulm and Man? Secondly, why a weak Van besides the forced scales for LoT? I can understand comparing Lot to Van, since its mages appear to be very similarly built at first glance. (Look at the Tuatha: he has the identical stats of the Vanadrott, except that he is 10 gold more; instead of a hoof attack, he has a magical Alicorn attack, and instead of the sailing ability, he recuperates, and instead of 1 blood, he has 2 nature. I'll leave it up to you to judge if one or the other may get a better deal.) LoT has serious research problems and needs to find sages asap, but once they do, they are just as scary. And as to troops: Man lacks in absolutely nothing but tramplers. In LoT, the D.Sidhe is a really decent 35 gold sacred unit, and only Flags are cheaper than Cu Sidhe for a bless unit, and Cu are far better than flags, they are also stealthy patrollers to boot. There are any number of tactics Man can use with their very variable army. AIr and Nature as paths happen to work very synergetically with the schools one would normally research as support spells for archers. And there are bards. Sure Van has Earth, cheap randoms, and Vans/Valks, which are all great, and I think Van is one of the strongest nations out there, but I just dont think that Man is a watered down Van.
As to their effectiveness: I really dont know Man well at all, but you could try to challenge PhilDuchon to a 1on1 and let him play Man. Good luck!

My reasons for saying that were mainly the following ones :
Vanheim gets at least 120 extra points with cold 1-2 and misfortune 1-2 scale .
Furthermore they could also take turmoil + a watchtower with their rather resourcecheap troops .
Then Vanheim has the Allfather as a superb combat pretender .

And finally most important Vanheim has the Van , the best noncapitol only blessed unit .
Mans Daoine Sidhe are capitol only and otherwise weaker then a van also .

And Vanheim base has the very useful dwarfen smith . He can summon Mech men + forge dwarfen hammers + do some good combat spells . You could e.g. combine Mech Men with some Storm demons for a very powerful army .


About the 1on1 : I lose almost every 1on1 because i normally love to hoard and in 1on1 hoarding normally never pays off . So Phil would very likely beat me in a 1on1 .

But i doubt that he easily wins a "normal" game on a map like karan or cradle with 8-12 players involved chosing LoT .

As 5 weakest nations i would chose in no particular order :
- Marignon
- Man
- Tien chi
- Ulm
- Pangenea

[tinkthank]

Turmoil? Weird.
Well look, I wont contest that Van is strong, and Vans are one of the best units in the game hands down. I wont repeat stuff here.

Odd, however: I have already beaten you with 2 of the nations you feel are the weakest, maybe we can try Man out next ;-)

[Endoperez]

I think Boron meant Sloth.

[Tricon]

I have to admit, that in my mnd(at least)the theme for Mn has changed dramatically. In the first 3-4 game sI thought of them much like their description was. But after my wife (!)pummeled me(as marignon) as Man with a dominion + uprising blitz (taking advantage of my reluctants to attack early)this changed. The monk as cheap stealthy preacher, the bard as unrest generator... is a pretty powerfull comboin early-mid game.
However, it can be dismantled if you expect it... , but Man has just good enough troops to make that strategy NOT a necessity. IF Man gets an early sage or amazon province... they can hold up to most nation (... erm of course just about every nation can do that if they get a juicy province like that...).
Point being... I think the bard is a great unit. But not an unballanced one.

[Boron]

tinkthank said:
Turmoil? Weird.
Well look, I wont contest that Van is strong, and Vans are one of the best units in the game hands down. I wont repeat stuff here.

Odd, however: I have already beaten you with 2 of the nations you feel are the weakest, maybe we can try Man out next ;-)

Yeah i meant sloth instead .

That you won with 2 weak nations is not strange because 1st most of those nations have in common that they are good rusher nations like your Marignon and 2nd you like to rush and the maps are too small so i can't start lategame tactics or hoarding .

And you are a very skilled 1on1 and earlygame player .
Nevertheless i enjoy our games .
But they can't be compared to the "normal" 8-12 player game on a map with 150-250 provinces .

[Alneyan]

Boron said:
But they can't be compared to the "normal" 8-12 player game on a map with 150-250 provinces .

I wonder if there would be much interest in a slugfest game, where quite a lot of players would play on a small map (say, perhaps ten provinces per player or so). Hmm...

[quantum_mechani]

Alneyan said:

I wonder if there would be much interest in a slugfest game, where quite a lot of players would play on a small map (say, perhaps ten provinces per player or so). Hmm...

That's my favorite kind of game

[The_Tauren13]

Alneyan said:

I wonder if there would be much interest in a slugfest game, where quite a lot of players would play on a small map (say, perhaps ten provinces per player or so). Hmm...

Oooh I love those!!! I don't like to play large maps... the game ceases to be fun anymore after about 80 or so turns, depending on the research rate.

[alexti]

Alneyan said:

I wonder if there would be much interest in a slugfest game, where quite a lot of players would play on a small map (say, perhaps ten provinces per player or so). Hmm...

Sure, that's pretty common settings which tends to produce fun games. But if you want really aggressive game, 5-6 provinces per player make things interesting really quickly