Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please read

[Boron]

The Dai Oni kings are perfect raiders in earlygame if you do a e9 bless.
With the e9 bless + summon ep they get 8 reinvigoration. So you can use them unequipped and they still make terrific thugs.
With equipment they are SCs.

Imho they are fine, you just have to rely on your mages. Your troops are not important, but the archers for 8 gold are useful.
Hanyas can cast flaming arrows for them.

Yomo is imho a good nation, but hard to play. But they have extremely interesting options available with the dai oni, which are imho more flexible than niefel jarls.

You said dai oni have less hp then the niefels, that is only half true, you have to count their ghost form hp as hp too. And their ghost form is an extremely useful feature:
A niefel jarl dies from 1 sucessful GfH hit, whereas for a dai oni you need 2 such hits.

And they have the most flexible buffs i think, both atlantis and niefelheim are a bit more limited there.

Summon EP, Invulnerability, Soul vortex, Fire shield, Phönix Pyre, every 4th mirror image.

They also can do terrific battle magic: Earthquake and RoS.


Their troops are a weakness, but at least the archers are useful enough. The Dai Oni are their main strength.
Imho they are balanced and one of the better early era nations. The only problem is that you are almost forced to play them with an e9 strat imho.

[Corwin]

Boron said:
The Dai Oni kings are perfect raiders in earlygame if you do a e9 bless.
With the e9 bless + summon ep they get 8 reinvigoration. So you can use them unequipped and they still make terrific thugs.
With equipment they are SCs.

Imho they are fine, you just have to rely on your mages. Your troops are not important, but the archers for 8 gold are useful.
Hanyas can cast flaming arrows for them.

Yomo is imho a good nation, but hard to play. But they have extremely interesting options available with the dai oni, which are imho more flexible than niefel jarls.

You said dai oni have less hp then the niefels, that is only half true, you have to count their ghost form hp as hp too. And their ghost form is an extremely useful feature:
A niefel jarl dies from 1 sucessful GfH hit, whereas for a dai oni you need 2 such hits.

And they have the most flexible buffs i think, both atlantis and niefelheim are a bit more limited there.

Summon EP, Invulnerability, Soul vortex, Fire shield, Phönix Pyre, every 4th mirror image.

They also can do terrific battle magic: Earthquake and RoS.


Their troops are a weakness, but at least the archers are useful enough. The Dai Oni are their main strength.
Imho they are balanced and one of the better early era nations. The only problem is that you are almost forced to play them with an e9 strat imho.

You make some very good points Boron. I completely agree, Dai Oni are more flexable (and potentially more powerful) than Niefel Jarls. That's why I like them more, and as I said earlier, in the end game with good buffs and items they make better SCs than Jarls.

I haven't tried E9 bless with Oni. I suspect you are rigth, and it might work reasonably well. However I would expect your Dai Oni to suffer and collect afflictions quickly, if you use them butt naked from the very begining.

Still it maybe worth it because of faster expansion. It's hard to know for sure before you actually try it. An interesting idea in any case. Personally if I would be trying something along these lines, I would probably throw N4 into the mix, to make my Dai Oni last longer without becoming walking wreck due to injuries. And at the very least I would get them before sending them on their own or with only missile support against tough indeps.

Overall I think your and mine perception of Oni are not too far from each other. I agree than Dai Oni are great, and the archers are cheap and low resources. But all my suggestions, as you can see, were centered on Oni demon troops, which, as pretty much all people here seem to agree, including yourself, are very weak and need some boost, or there is not much point of using them at all in MP.

And playing Oni Kings nation while only using single demon king SC and bunch or human archers/infantry, without using any of 6 demon troops, just doesn't seems as a elegant solution to me from the design/balance point of view, if you know what I mean. I think Oni overall balance and diversity would increase a lot, if the actual demon troops would be made efficient in MP by few tweaks. My suggestions are an attempt to do just that.

[Boron]

curtadams said:
I have to disagree with leaving the demon army so vulnerable to exorcism both on thematic and game grounds. On game ground the decision is easy - when a half dozen cheap priests, available to anybody, can cripple any demon army you don't have a good game balance. There's a rough balance between Ermor and cheap priests - so if demon armies are to be playable they have to be almost as easy to produce as an undead horde, and that's far, far, from the case

Priests are not so easy to get in dom3 as in dom2!
500 gold per temple for indy priests.
So only if you have national priest mages like dryads or arco priestesses a nation will have many priests in early game at least because it takes time to build new castles.

If you build only temples you are vulnerable to raiding then. And the yomo player could also do skelspam, then those skellis will have to be banished as well.

And magic resistence is ok for the dai oni demons anyways imho. 13-15, that is not bad!

But all in all i am not a too big fan of most of the demons neither!

Corwin said:


You make some very good points Boron. I completely agree, Dai Oni are more flexable (and potentially more powerful) than Niefel Jarls. That's why I like them more, and as I said earlier, in the end game with good buffs and items they make better SCs than Jarls.

I haven't tried E9 bless with Oni. I suspect you are rigth, and it might work reasonably well. However I would expect your Dai Oni to suffer and collect afflictions quickly, if you use them butt naked from the very begining.

Still it maybe worth it because of faster expansion. It's hard to know for sure before you actually try it. An interesting idea in any case. Personally if I would be trying something along these lines, I would probably throw N4 into the mix, to make my Dai Oni last longer without becoming walking wreck due to injuries. And at the very least I would get them before sending them on their own or with only missile support against tough indeps.

Overall I think your and mine perception of Oni are not too far from each other. I agree than Dai Oni are great, and the archers are cheap and low resources. But all my suggestions, as you can see, were centered on Oni demon troops, which, as pretty much all people here seem to agree, including yourself, are very weak and need some boost, or there is not much point of using them at all in MP.

And playing Oni Kings nation while only using single demon king SC and bunch or human archers/infantry, without using any of 6 demon troops, just doesn't seems as a elegant solution to me from the design/balance point of view, if you know what I mean. I think Oni overall balance and diversity would increase a lot, if the actual demon troops would be made efficient in MP by few tweaks. My suggestions are an attempt to do just that.

Hm yes that is indeed problematic.

The problem is that imho most of the demon troops cost too much.
The Ko-Oni is useful imho, 12 cost is much too but he is easy to amass with his 1 resource cost and he has imho more combat power than the bakemono sho.
Once you can cast end of weakness they should be even more useful.

The other 4 demon troops are all too expensive though imho. I would also suggest they need price balancing.

Yomo is complicated with troops, i would only use 3 troop types:
Bandit archers when i have money shortages, otherwise pump bakemono archers. And in special cases a horde of ku onis.

The ku onis have various advantages imho:
need not eat, still ok price, size 1, so ultraswarming, 2nd form, so they need to be killed twice and 1 resource cost.

If your enemy does not have either really good spammable battle magic (blade wind and magma eruption mainly) or has SCs with fireshield the ku onis are decent.
They can swarm and they have only 1 encumberance.
So once you have a horde of them they become a problem.
They still die en masse, but that is not the problem because you can replace them much faster than your enemy.
They are like lobo guards. Only an average unit, but because they are so mass produceable they overwhelm the enemy .

Maybe they should only cost 10 gold though. But the other Yomo demon troops cost way too much and the non-demon non-missile troops of dai oni are nearly useless as well.

Price balances should do the trick though .

[Corwin]

Boron said:

Priests are not so easy to get in dom3 as in dom2!
500 gold per temple for indy priests.
So only if you have national priest mages like dryads or arco priestesses a nation will have many priests in early game at least because it takes time to build new castles.

If you build only temples you are vulnerable to raiding then. And the yomo player could also do skelspam, then those skellis will have to be banished as well.

And magic resistence is ok for the dai oni demons anyways imho. 13-15, that is not bad!

But all in all i am not a too big fan of most of the demons neither!

Hm yes that is indeed problematic.

The problem is that imho most of the demon troops cost too much.
The Ko-Oni is useful imho, 12 cost is much too but he is easy to amass with his 1 resource cost and he has imho more combat power than the bakemono sho.
Once you can cast end of weakness they should be even more useful.

The other 4 demon troops are all too expensive though imho. I would also suggest they need price balancing.

Yomo is complicated with troops, i would only use 3 troop types:
Bandit archers when i have money shortages, otherwise pump bakemono archers. And in special cases a horde of ku onis.

The ku onis have various advantages imho:
need not eat, still ok price, size 1, so ultraswarming, 2nd form, so they need to be killed twice and 1 resource cost.

If your enemy does not have either really good spammable battle magic (blade wind and magma eruption mainly) or has SCs with fireshield the ku onis are decent.
They can swarm and they have only 1 encumberance.
So once you have a horde of them they become a problem.
They still die en masse, but that is not the problem because you can replace them much faster than your enemy.
They are like lobo guards. Only an average unit, but because they are so mass produceable they overwhelm the enemy .

Maybe they should only cost 10 gold though. But the other Yomo demon troops cost way too much and the non-demon non-missile troops of dai oni are nearly useless as well.

Price balances should do the trick though .

I agree with you and Kristoffer Boron, price balance is indeed a possible solution. I mean - "There are many ways to skin the cat". Troops can be made better, or can be made cheaper, or both. Decreasing price of 30gp demons to 15gp, and 50-65gp to 25-30gp might do the trick. But I would still like to see ghost form made more durable, with same hitpoints as a normal form. This does not increase fighting power of Oni much, since ghost form are hopelessly weak due to only having illusionary weapons. But this would fit nicely into concept of "near immortality", alowing more demons to survive IF the battle is won.


I don't like the idea of oni ghost forms fleeing the battle, I would prefer them to stay and either fight or die. But giving them a bit more hitpoints and higher MR, so they would not be killed in mass with single banishment, would be good.



About Ku-Onis - as partly agree with you. Like yourself, I also like their swarm tactic, both from the tematic point of view and game-wise. But the problem is that their size one makes then the worst troops if you are facing priests, and in MP as an Oni player, you pretty much always do.

************************************************** *****
Here is some primitive math - up to 30 (6x5) Ku-Oni are affected by casting of lvl 1 banishment each turn. That's 2 times more units than size 2 Ao-Oni (25gp demon).

Now Ku-Oni MR of 13 vs 14 for AO-Oni. According to the probabilities table on page 5 of the manual, that makes them about 25% more vulnerable for banishments.

Now Ku-Oni have 9hp vs 14 hp for Ao-Oni. That's 55%+ more hitpoints for AO-Oni.

So here we have it. In terms of actually killing units (reducing their hitpoints) banishment is (2 times x 1.25 x 1.55) = 4.75 times more deadly for Ku -Oni than for Ao-Oni.

That's A LOT.

Considering that the the AO-Oni only cost 25 gp vs 12 gp for Ku-Oni, and considering that the banishment is the main weakness of Oni in MP, there is no point of buying Ku-Oni instead of Ao-Oni even with the current pricing.

That does not even include the fact that AO-Oni are much better fighters than Ku-Oni, that the AO-Oni have secondary weapons which Ku-Oni do not have, that they move much faster on the battlefield (10 instead of 7 movement), that they have morale 14 instead of morale 9, so they are much less likely to rout, while costing the same 1 res, and even have 1 slightly better protection.

Now considering all these facts, and considering the fact that the only thing Ku-Oni have over Ao-Oni is size 1 instead of size 2, (which, as i mentioned, also makes twice as vulnerable as Ao-Oni for banishment unit-wise), I don't see any reason why would somebody want to buy Ku-Oni instead of Ao-Oni, when facing human opponent.

************************************************** *******
The math may be slightly off, but not by much I think.


That is not to say that AO-Oni and better demons should be left as it is price-wise. My point is simply that none of the demons are price efficient at this point, including least epensive Ku-Oni. And that Ku-Oni IMHO are the worst cost/efficient demon unit when it comes to banishment in MP, as I tried to show in my calculations.



Anyway, as I said, IMHO serious price reduction, perhaps making all demonic units twice least expensive, may do the trick, together with better survivability of ghost form due to same HP as normal form and better MR for ghost form.

The banishment will still present huge problem for Oni players, but maybe it will be enough to make some demon troops worth building in MP games, as an opposite to using bakamoo archers and indeps.

[KissBlade]

heh actually the idea of them fleeing does make sense thematically for oni's, I like it a lot =).

[Corwin]

KissBlade said:
heh actually the idea of them fleeing does make sense thematically for oni's, I like it a lot =).

Thematically - yes, I agree, it's nice. Cowardly demons, thinking of their own survival, hiding in the dark corners of the world before reforming into new bodies, et cetera...

But from the gameplay point of view, it will make Oni even weaker that they are, considering how easely their normal form are killed. At least now spirit form can distract opponents for a while, before it is killed. I would much rather lose banch of demons but increase my chances of wining the battle, than have demons flee once in ghost form, and lose the battle AND most of the army.


IMHO the last thing Oni need is a change to make their demonic troops weaker.

[Boron]

Corwin said:
I agree with you and Kristoffer Boron, price balance is indeed a possible solution. I mean - "There are many ways to skin the cat". Troops can be made better, or can be made cheaper, or both. Decreasing price of 30gp demons to 15gp, and 50-65gp to 25-30gp might do the trick. But I would still like to see ghost form made more durable, with same hitpoints as a normal form. This does not increase fighting power of Oni much, since ghost form are hopelessly weak due to only having illusionary weapons. But this would fit nicely into concept of "near immortality", alowing more demons to survive IF the battle is won.


I don't like the idea of oni ghost forms fleeing the battle, I would prefer them to stay and either fight or die. But giving them a bit more hitpoints and higher MR, so they would not be killed in mass with single banishment, would be good.



About Ku-Onis - as partly agree with you. Like yourself, I also like their swarm tactic, both from the tematic point of view and game-wise. But the problem is that their size one makes then the worst troops if you are facing priests, and in MP as an Oni player, you pretty much always do.

************************************************** *****
Here is some primitive math - up to 30 (6x5) Ku-Oni are affected by casting of lvl 1 banishment each turn. That's 2 times more units than size 2 Ao-Oni (25gp demon).

Now Ku-Oni MR of 13 vs 14 for AO-Oni. According to the probabilities table on page 5 of the manual, that makes them about 25% more vulnerable for banishments.

Now Ku-Oni have 9hp vs 14 hp for Ao-Oni. That's 55%+ more hitpoints for AO-Oni.

So here we have it. In terms of actually killing units (reducing their hitpoints) banishment is (2 times x 1.25 x 1.55) = 4.75 times more deadly for Ku -Oni than for Ao-Oni.

That's A LOT.

Considering that the the AO-Oni only cost 25 gp vs 12 gp for Ku-Oni, and considering that the banishment is the main weakness of Oni in MP, there is no point of buying Ku-Oni instead of Ao-Oni even with the current pricing.

That does not even include the fact that AO-Oni are much better fighters than Ku-Oni, that the AO-Oni have secondary weapons which Ku-Oni do not have, that they move much faster on the battlefield (10 instead of 7 movement), that they have morale 14 instead of morale 9, so they are much less likely to rout, while costing the same 1 res, and even have 1 slightly better protection.

Now considering all these facts, and considering the fact that the only thing Ku-Oni have over Ao-Oni is size 1 instead of size 2, (which, as i mentioned, also makes twice as vulnerable as Ao-Oni for banishment unit-wise), I don't see any reason why would somebody want to buy Ku-Oni instead of Ao-Oni, when facing human opponent.

************************************************** *******
The math may be slightly off, but not by much I think.


That is not to say that AO-Oni and better demons should be left as it is price-wise. My point is simply that none of the demons are price efficient at this point, including least epensive Ku-Oni. And that Ku-Oni IMHO are the worst cost/efficient demon unit when it comes to banishment in MP, as I tried to show in my calculations.



Anyway, as I said, IMHO serious price reduction, perhaps making all demonic units twice least expensive, may do the trick, together with better survivability of ghost form due to same HP as normal form and better MR for ghost form.

The banishment will still present huge problem for Oni players, but maybe it will be enough to make some demon troops worth building in MP games, as an opposite to using bakamoo archers and indeps.

Your calculation is informative . You have left out some important facts though:
Range of banishment!
20+

Your shortbows have 30 range.
So place your ko oni on the edge of the battlefield with hold and attack x orders.
Just before your archers to protect them from fast enemy troops.
Then their slow 7 movement is a further advantage.
For several turns they will stay out of banishment range!
The enemy priests will do nothing then if they are normal priests or if they are priest mages they will cast other spells and fatigue.

Then there are skelspamming Hanyas. The skellis have movement in the range of 6-9 movepoints iirc. For the first 2 turns the skellis will already move while the ku oni still stay idle.

So the skellis provide alternative targets for the enemy.

So imho banishment is not a too big issue for Yomo.

But you are nontheless correct i think. The size of the Ku-Oni is more often a problem than an advantage because of other spells.

Mainly Bladewind and Magma eruption devastate the poor Ku-Oni really well.

And if we check early era this is extremely problematic because many early era nations can do bladewind and/or magma eruption:

-Arco:
Not guaranteed, but with randoms every 4th mage engineer gets earth 2 and some mystics should also get lucky with randoms and be able to cast blade wind or magma eruption.

-Maverni:
Every Druid can bladewind (and most can eagle eye, and every Druid can GfH)

-Ulm:
Almost every of their mages can bladewind.

-Pan:
Every 2nd Pan can bladewind.

-Argatha:
Every Oracle can bladewind, the oracle of subterran fires can do magma eruption too.
Every 4th earth reader can bladewind too.

-Vanheim:
Every dwarfen smith can bladewind, every 4th magma eruption.

-Helheim:
Every swartalf can bladewind, every 4th magma eruption.

-Kailasa:
Yaksha can bladewind (and eagle eye).

(-Yomi:
Dai Oni can bladewind/magma eruption too.)

-Atlantis:
Basalt kings can bladewind/magma eruption too, and rarely a mage of the deep too.


So 9 other early era nations can easily bladewind/magma eruption. These spells are ultimate doom for all of Yomis small size 1/2 troops.


But vs. most of the above listed nations Yomo can counter with Dai Oni casting earthquake or rain of stones.
And they also can counter reasonable well vs. bladewind with end of weakness.

But the earthquake/rain of stones counter is hard to pull of imho. And it is somewhat in vain vs. nations with cheap non-capitol only mages which are uber like helheim/vanheim svartalfs/dwarfes.

[Corwin]

I've sent you a message about your proposed anti-banishment battle tactic and positioning, I see potential problem with it. But let's continue this discussion in PM.

For here let me just say that even if it will be relatively effective, what prevents your opponent from countering it by simply scripting his priests to "attack/attack/banishments/banishment/banishment/cast spells", while positioning them behind his advancing melee troops of course? This way your are back at the same tight spot, with additional disadvantage that now your whole army is compressed not far away from edge of the map, so stray arrows/spell can hurt your mages and commanders, including those that you normally leave as far from melee as possible, and if your lose the battle the enemy may kill a lot of your fatiqued mages, because they are right in front of them.


As for other spells that you have mentioned such as bladewind and magma eruption - I agree with your reasoning and your observations.



In any case, we can discuss battle tactic in PMs.

[BigJMoney]

Boron said:
Your shortbows have 30 range.
So place your ko oni on the edge of the battlefield with hold and attack x orders.
Just before your archers to protect them from fast enemy troops.

Tactics like those simply don't work in Dominions. Weapon ranges are the one minor disappointment in the Dominions games to me. I've found that a weapon with a longer range than another weapon doesn't mean very much. I've set up longbows verus shortbows, and there are no tactics. Even with longbows at the very edge of the map, shortbows can still move forward and attack in the first round. That's no even one round worth of delay! The way APs work in Dominions, it's possible to move your AP (or maybe it's AP-1) and still make a full attack/spell. I've always thought this should be changed for spell-casters and ranged troops, myself, but I've never gotten around to mentioning it because I'm probably the only person who cares. Of course, you'd also have to discriminate thrown ranged weapons from "devoted" ranged weapons like bows and crossbows, because I think javelins and slings should be able to be thrown while on the run. Oh yeah, and I suppose mounted archers should be able to attack on the move as well.

Sorry, starting to go OT here. Also, you guys talking about Maverni, please be careful because it's now OT as well.

=$=

[PDF]

Nerfix,
Yes what I meant it that a bless strategy was useless for Maverni, but the way I wrote it wasn't that clear, sorry !
Abour tribe matching (Ambibates vs Carnutes) : well, Ambibates costs 5 gold less, have 1 morale less (at 11 only, which is not good), 1 att and 4 Def more than Carnutes - here you're right, they're much better- but Carnutes have berserk, which is nice imho, and Wood surv.

That's not a so huge difference, at least when confronted to Onis or Seal Guards, both dies in doves !
And in practice I mix both - but in my thread I've summarized

So I agree to say there's 3 usable units, Eponi Kn, Carnutes and Ambibates. Yet all are weak in EA...

As for research I agree : the only good thing Maverni has is superb mages (that are also priests).