Cause of scale-loss bug found!

IndyPendant · #1 November 28th, 2007, 01:11 PM

Heh. Thanks guys. I may have to bow out though, redfaced.

My conclusion appears wrong after all. : (

While I was experimenting last night, one of the things I did was remove the #poptype command from the starting province, and I kept the positive scales on the second turn. I didn't think to recreate *those* game settings though, just in case that was a fluke. I went to bed, ill and tired, but confident I had it right.

It seems I don't.

This morning, I went ahead and created a game to play, with the poptypes edited out--and the scales vanished.

Oh, crap.

Some further troubleshooting later, and I can still reproduce the bug with like 98% reliability or so--but I've discovered it's not the #poptype command after all. By making this post last night, I now feel like I have some 'ownership' in finding the cause. So I've spent some more time experimenting with this, to see if I can track down the real cause after all.

So far, I've only been able to find one reliable pattern: when playing MA R'lyeh on certain maps, I can create the scale-loss bug nearly every time.

I'd like to ask someone else's help now. Here's what I'd like you to try: start the following games on the following maps, and see if you repeat my findings:

Change *only* the following settings when creating the game: Middle Age, Human player from Random to R'lyeh, Pretender to Master Lich (though the bug appears for me with most Pretenders), Scales to Order-3, Production-3, Cold-3, and Growth-3. Don't change anything else, then when the game starts end the first turn. If you don't get the bug, recreate that game with the same settings just in case. See if you get these findings:

--Silent Seas: bugged.
--Silent Seas Wraparound: bugged.
--Lonely Mermaid 1 & 2: not bugged.
--Glory to the Gods: bugged.
--Cradle of Dominions: not bugged.
--Aran: bugged.
--World of Geometry: not bugged.

I...am at a loss to determine a pattern from those maps. Some have been edited by me, some have not. Some are wraparound, some not. No maps seem to have any particularly unique commands or characters that would cause it. At first I thought it might be all the maps installed with Dom3--but Cradle isn't bugged. Other nations such as Formoria, EA Atlantis, MA Ermor, and MA Abysia aren't bugged, on the same maps that R'lyeh is. The #poptype command works safely on the Lonely Mermaid map.

Still, reliable repetition is the single most important step in tracking down any bug--and I can at least achieve that, even if I can't figure out the damned pattern. ; ) (Was Cradle not available in Dom2, but Silent Seas, Aran, and Glory were for example? If so, then all the non-bugged maps weren't around for Dom2...)

Sorry to get your hopes up, guys. The good news is that you can keep using the #poptype command; it doesn't look to be the cause. I'll edit my original post accordingly.

...bah.

Kristoffer O · #2 November 28th, 2007, 02:59 PM

We are not able to reproduce the bug. Neither on win nor Mac.

We tried Silent Seas with your scale settings without success.

How far into the game does this happen? First turn or after a while?

Daynarr · #3 November 28th, 2007, 03:04 PM

IIRC this happens on the second turn. First turn scales are normal, next turn all positive scales are gone.

Endoperez · #4 November 28th, 2007, 03:25 PM

What about copying the game folder and testing for the bug with that spesific file? IndyPendant can reliably cause it in his own computer. With even one game that causes the bug reliably, on his computer, we can test if it happens on the devs' computers reliably. It could be it only happens on certain OSs, or with certain hardware, or something similarly obscure.

Kristoffer O · #5 November 28th, 2007, 03:36 PM

How many other nations did you use?

Did you do anything except press end turn?

IndyPendant · #6 November 28th, 2007, 04:15 PM

Heh. This bug is starting to seriously annoy me. --In a good way, though; I love a true troubleshooting challenge! : )

I can still reproduce the error, but now with only about a 50% success rate. Still, I've got a game I've created, copied to another folder, then ended the first turn. Got the bug, copied that same game--the exact same files--back into the savedgames folder, ended the first turn again, no bug. Then no bug, bug, bug, no bug, no bug, bug, bug, bug.

I've attached the files for anyone to try that would like to. Game folder is 'Bug1', just as it is in the archive. I'm using the default Silent Seas wraparound map that came with the game. I'll be interested to see if anyone can reproduce this bug. If the bug doesn't occur, please try ending the first turn at least five times total to see if you can reproduce it. (Note: DO NOT end the same game five times, to reach Turn Six! I mean delete, recopy, and end the first turn up to five times to see if you can reproduce the bug.)

K.O., it didn't matter if I gave orders or not. If the bug kicked in, it *always* kicked in after ending the very first turn. When I first encountered the bug, I was giving my first-turn orders then ending the turn. But when I began my troubleshooting, I would just create the game and immediately End Turn, and I still got the bug. The bug takes three forms, so far as I can observe: 1) loss of all positive scales, which will come back slowly similar to converting from enemy dominion; 2) loss of all positive scales, that only come back very slowly, so that even after two years and more it still hasn't returned to normal; and 3) slight loss of positive scales, which spend the next year or two 'making up their minds' whether to go up or down, but never quite vanish or return to normal.

I have checked a few other nations, but could only reliably reproduce it with MA R'lyeh.

I'm sick again today, so I'm going to be around for at least another four hours, and I'll probably be around tomorrow as well with the way I'm feeling. So I've got time to work back and forth on this if you'd like. Gives me something to do. ; )

Edit: Took me a short bit to figure out how to upload it, since it wouldn't take the .trn file. Zipped it is!

IndyPendant · #7 November 28th, 2007, 04:39 PM

Well, this is a bit annoying.

I've just tried a few dozen more starts, and I can no longer reproduce the bug on the Aran and Silent Seas (nonwrap) maps. Just in case the previous file doesn't work though, I've attached a zip of a Glory game I've created where I can also reproduce the bug. My Glory .map file is heavily edited, if it matters. ; ) --And after doing all that, I went back and copied Bug1 in again and tested it: still getting the bug semi-reliably.

Oh, another detail, in case it wasn't clear: if the bug doesn't show up after ending the first turn, then it never shows up.