lamentation for a queen

Endoperez · #1 February 9th, 2008, 05:40 PM

Norfleet always managed to fire up people's feelings. I suggest we just drop that line of discussion. We can all agree that some nerfing was needed, more nerfing happened, and Vampire Queen is too expensive for what she is ATM.

sector24 · #2 February 9th, 2008, 06:57 PM

There are actually a lot of less than ideal pretenders. When you think about it in that context the VQ is not at all uncommon in the grand scheme. The only difference is that she was good at one point and is no longer so.

WraithLord · #3 February 9th, 2008, 08:02 PM

Some examples will be nice, but IMO VQ is not really less than ideal, its out right useless. I think for probably all of the pretenders its possible to find a scenario in which they would be useful, or cost effective. Currently, for the VQ I can't seem to find any use at all. If there is one that I'm missing then I'd truly like to know about it.

Omnirizon · #4 February 9th, 2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

WraithLord said:
Some examples will be nice, but IMO VQ is not really less than ideal, its out right useless. I think for probably all of the pretenders its possible to find a scenario in which they would be useful, or cost effective. Currently, for the VQ I can't seem to find any use at all. If there is one that I'm missing then I'd truly like to know about it.

she makes a pretty good scout

sector24 · #5 February 9th, 2008, 08:31 PM

There are a lot of large high HP pretenders that don't have the kind of stats or abilities that you'd want for early expansion, nor high starting paths for a bless. Just a few examples:

Lord of War
Father of Serpents
Jade Emperor
Lord of Plenty
Lady of Fortune
Celestial General
Mother of Monsters
Lord of Rebirth
etc.

I do agree with you that the VQ is currently a far worse choice than any of these. I didn't mean to argue against your point, just provide a different perspective. If you think of the VQ as the Celestial General's smaller sneakier sister, then she just becomes another pretender that you never really use but the AI seems to choose all the time.

WraithLord · #6 February 10th, 2008, 06:16 AM

Quote:

sector24 said:
There are a lot of large high HP pretenders that don't have the kind of stats or abilities that you'd want for early expansion, nor high starting paths for a bless. Just a few examples:

Lord of War
Father of Serpents
Jade Emperor
Lord of Plenty
Lady of Fortune
Celestial General
Mother of Monsters
Lord of Rebirth
etc.

I do agree with you that the VQ is currently a far worse choice than any of these. I didn't mean to argue against your point, just provide a different perspective. If you think of the VQ as the Celestial General's smaller sneakier sister, then she just becomes another pretender that you never really use but the AI seems to choose all the time.

I agree with your point about less than ideal pretenders. I'm glad (or rather sad) we both agree that the VQ is the worst in the list.

As for the titan pretenders, they cost less than VQ, have higher starting dominion, are not undead (immune to undead spells, banish), are size 6 (immune to trample) so they are much better cost-effective wise than VQ. Also, some of the pretenders in your list also have magic cost path lower than that of VQ (IIRC mother of monsters is one example)

The father of serpents has a valid role as a rainbow mage, a category there's just no way the VQ can fit.

Endoperez · #7 February 10th, 2008, 12:32 PM

Quote:

WraithLord said:
The father of serpents has a valid role as a rainbow mage, a category there's just no way the VQ can fit.

Serpent King is the rainbow, Father of Serpents is a titan.

Everything in your post still applies, just thought to point it out.

WraithLord · #8 February 10th, 2008, 01:03 PM

You're right. Thanks for correcting my confusion.

vfb, I now understand your point about VQ. I think If I had to choose her I would probably make her an imprisoned scales god. At least some good will come out of it

vfb · #9 February 9th, 2008, 08:39 PM

That "King of War" guy with 10 encumberance or whatever is pretty crappy.

I thought I'd have to take the VQ in a game where I'm handicapped, by the other players choosing my nation and pretender chassis. Here are two ideas that sort-of work:

1) Combat VQ. Death-5 gives fear, Awe-2 for defense, and immortality in case it doesn't work. Could fly-sneak onto an enemy capitol for Dom kill, but risky with Stealth 0, 'cause her immortality won't save her if she's found.

Awake
Death 5 Blood 3
Dominion 10
Turmoil 3 Sloth 3 Cold 1 Fortune 3 Drain 2

2) Blood Hunt. Imprison and take good scales, non-blood nation, and use her to start getting you into blood sometime.

Imprisoned
Death 1 Blood 2
Dominion 6
Order 3 Productivity 2 Growth 2 Fortune 3 Drain 2

Endoperez · #10 February 9th, 2008, 08:54 PM

I've actually chosen Father of Serpents for MP. I wanted to go for Entchantment, race for Gift of Health, and decided to pursue Nat/Death. He was the best choice for it (about N5D5, dom 7-8 or so, mediocre scales). I was quite annoyed at having to pay so much for a chassis which isn't that much better than various other choices, but it was best for what I wanted.