Trample balance discussion

[Agema]

Originally Posted by Sombre

You don't have any argument. Or rather you've changed it to the extent that I have no idea what your position actually is. You first stated graphics were irrelevant to size and are now say elephants look size 5 or 6 so there isn't a problem. No-one has said elephants should be below size 5. The talk has been of setting them at size 5 to nerf them a bit and whether or not that is sensibly justifiable in terms of graphics, realism (to the extent that it's useful) and flavour.

The rest of your post suggests to me you haven't actually looked at the kraken graphic. Not the ancient kraken. The regular summon. I believe the shark is also size 6. It doesn't seem intuitive to me, but being underwater it doesn't come into play that much. It's not something I'd go on and on about.

You seem a bit unnecessarily aggressive. You've chucked around terms like "silly" and "ludicrous", misrepresented my opinions, and stuff like "suggests to me you haven't actually looked at the kraken graphic" comes across as a bit insultingly dismissive (never mind wrong).

I didn't say graphics had nothing to do with the creature: you extrapolated that unfairly. Similarly I don't know why you are implying I thought elephants should be size 4 or under. I feel like you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against them instead of what I've actually said.

If I can clarify, I read the file and saw people arguing size stats for some units are "wrong" or need reconstructing to 12 sizes. I don't find some of the arguments about 'realism', graphical niceties, and so on convincing. I think the important arguments are about game balance. That's where I'm coming from, even if I didn't just stamp that statement down straight away.

[HoneyBadger]

By the way, it's been a very long time since I've read the elephant description, but I'm not 100% certain that Kristoffer intended that they just be average sized Indian elephants--which I still believe should be size six. They could very well be African elephants, which are significantly larger, or even imperial mammoths, which reached heights of 16 feet or more at the shoulder. I *do* remember something being said about them being the largest of all beasts, which to me says size 6 all the way.

[Zeldor]

Endoperez:

Nothing is more ugly than mind burning illithids. You can get at least an headache from it. Or worse.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

Endoperez:

Nothing is more ugly than mind burning illithids. You can get at least an headache from it. Or worse.

That's not a bug, it's a feature!

But the sound mod also changes that, and the female death-scream. It's a lifesaver, really. And the 247 downloads it has seem to agree with me.

EDIT:
Regarding Deadnature's suggestion: the spearmen would need some kind of attack roll. Furthermore, pikes should be better than glaives, but glaives have higher base damage, not to mention Hammer of the Mountains (base dmg 25!). Dealing (weapon length - 3) damage would probably work better. It wouldn't probably kill, but it would cause lots of morale checks.

[Tifone]

BTW as we are on topic:

How would a couple of good, untrampeable thugs with ivy crowns (some animal awe), work against, let's say, a dozen elephants?
And does normal Awe work against elephants as well?

[thejeff]

Awe works against elephants. Pretty well too, though their morale isn't really that low. Normal humans with Ivy crowns would probably get squished pretty quickly. Giants (or the equivalent) would last long enough to matter. I wonder if that's the niche use for the Rat Tail? Fear on hit & Animal Awe

Anything untrampleable works wonders against elephants, but the only things elephants can't trample are other size 6 creatures, which at the start where elephants a threat is your pretender (or your own elephants)

[Sombre]

Yeah rat tail does ok against elephants. However with enough of them or a morale boost, your dude will get trampled fairly quickly. Only has to lose one awe check and he's toast.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Yeah rat tail does ok against elephants. However with enough of them or a morale boost, your dude will get trampled fairly quickly. Only has to lose one awe check and he's toast.

Cast Flight > Cast Personal Quickness > Attack Large Monsters

?

[Rytek]

Ive given some of the EA Ctiss sacred chariot riders a rat tails and used them as linebackers to hold hordes of Mammoths while terror spam finally made them route.

[Deadnature]

I think that the point isn't to change elephants or other tramplers, like many people here said: some nations rely on them. Instead, I think the best idea is to give some units a boost against elephants.

My suggestion:

For every unit with a weapon over length 3 (all spears/pikes) that is successfully trampled, have that unit deal its base weapon damage to the trampler. After all, a wall of spears or pikes might not stop an elephant dead but certainly the elephant would impale itself in the process of trampling.

This is a soft nerf that makes sense. Elephants will still be powerful, but now there is a decent way to counter or at least slow them down. I mean, what sense does it make to see an elephant crush 10+/- pikemen without getting hurt at all? That's like trying to crush a beehive with your foot and not getting stung.

I think this idea with some modification would be acceptable to many people in regards to the elephant/tramplers question.