If Giants existed in BC times...

[HoneyBadger]

Cloth might not make an enormous difference, but it does make *a* difference, several infact, depending on the type of cloth, and the weave, and the circumstances around which it is struck. Pretty much anything can make a difference, in the middle of a battle. Armour was often *made* from cloth, typically layers of silk, or quilted linen, which should answer the question right there.

Swords were relatively rare, anyway, as were knights compared to the total population, and knights with swords were happy to have them. Even a very cheap sword was still a lot of metal dedicated to *just* fighting, and the skills to make a really good sword were rare, and sought after. Metal that could be used to grow food and build shelter was instead dedicated to supporting the Noble class, and their wars. All this made swords, of any kind, expensive.

One thing you should understand, Endoperez, is that I've been studying weapons and armour for my entire life. I was taught by my dad who studied and assessed swords professionally, for a living, for years. I was around swords, I read about them since I've been able to read, I've studied fencing and fighting with a wide variety of midieval weapons, both Western and Eastern, I've studied Eastern and Western forging techniques, and I've made a particular study of armour.

I'm not saying that I know everything, there's an enormous amount of material to digest-maybe too much for anyone to understand in a single lifetime-but I am saying that I'm talking from an educated and experienced position, and if there's something I don't know about midieval weapons and armour, I can probably atleast research it, find out about it, and make an educated guess about it.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

One thing you should understand, Endoperez, is that I've been studying weapons and armour for my entire life. I was taught by my dad who studied and assessed swords professionally, for a living, for years. I was around swords, I read about them since I've been able to read, I've studied fencing and fighting with a wide variety of midieval weapons, both Western and Eastern, I've studied Eastern and Western forging techniques, and I've made a particular study of armour.

I got the feeling you knew what you were speaking about, but it seemed to contradict what I had read before. That's why I dug up sources and didn't just go from memory: I wanted to see if my sources were wrong.

It also seems that we are either thinking of different ages or I'm totally off with my image of a knight: I was thinking of a knight armored head-to-toes in expensive armor fit to his body, riding a specially-bred war-charger. Both the horse and the armor would cost ridiculous amounts of money, so the cost of a good sword shouldn't be an obstacle.

EDIT: I knew about cloth armor, but you mentioned that clothing could make a difference, and that didn't seem right. I can't see a shirt stopping a sword, or even a knife. You probably meant something like heavy cloaks or something along those lines.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

EDIT: I knew about cloth armor, but you mentioned that clothing could make a difference, and that didn't seem right. I can't see a shirt stopping a sword, or even a knife. You probably meant something like heavy cloaks or something along those lines.

Without having read anything in this thread except for this last reply of Endo, I'd expect that what Max HB had in mind was similar to a Gambeson.

[chrispedersen]

Thematically (perhaps not accurately)

When I think of samurai - I think light amour, made of laminated wood. High moral. Charges (on foot). Ki screams. Experienced, and fast on initiative.

I think my take on Jomon would be:

1. Make the units take fewer resources. Wood and cloth are a lot easier to shape into armor than steel
2. Perhaps give them a paralyze special attack (Ki yell) - good once per combat.

Finally, it would be cool, if on the death of their leader they routed from combat (or commited sepuku). Aka, they route if the leader they serve on dies or routes.

Finally, since they were a professional combat force, perhaps make it easier for them to gain experience, or some of them with experience. Or, let a Jomon fort GIVE experience to any units garrisoned there.

[JimMorrison]

Hmmm, I'd say just simulate the particularly intensive martial training, by boosting both Att and Def by +1.

Small resource drop (maybe reduction of 3 or 4?) to all infantry would make it easier to field armies of useful size (and greatly help with initial expansion).

Also, while you may come up with convincing arguments why samurai armors should be AS encumbering as metal plate, I'm hard pressed to understand why they should be moreso.

[Endoperez]

Here's some comparisons between Samurai armors and others (prot, def, enc, res):

Samurai Armor: 14; -2; 3; 10
Full Scale Mail: 14; -3; 3; 12

Heavy Samurai Armor: 17; -3; 4; 14
Plate Hauberk: 17; -3; 4; 20

Kabuto (Helmet): 16; 0; 0; 6
Half Helmet: 17; 0; 0; 3

The helmet takes way too many resources, but
the basic Samurai armor is actually resource-cheap, and Samurai Armor allows mapmove 2 (unlike Full Scale).

Just lower Kabuto cost to 3, and Samurai Archers are 23, Samurai without bows 18 and 20 resources, Samurai in heavy armor 23.

[Endoperez]

I just did a little test on one of my existing mods-under-construction, and I'd like to say that the following changes make for Samurai with very different feel from other heavy infantries:

Kabuto: rcost 3, def 1
Samurai Armor: def 0
Heavy Samurai Armor: def -1

Samurai with naginata (18 res): prot 14 def 12
Samurai with katana (21): prot 14 def 14
In heavy samurai armor (25): prot 16 def 14
Aka-oni (red devil) (21): prot 14 def 16

Opinions on if this would actually help them, or just make them different without really affecting the balance?

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

EDIT: I knew about cloth armor, but you mentioned that clothing could make a difference, and that didn't seem right. I can't see a shirt stopping a sword, or even a knife. You probably meant something like heavy cloaks or something along those lines.

Clothing hampering blades seems right to me. When it comes to blades, especially impaling weapons (vs. cutting weapons), your skin is the thing protecting you. Once a knife penetrates your skin it can be amazingly deep with only a little extra force. It's very plausible to me that clothing could make a difference.

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.php

"Even today, prosecutors trying homicide cases involving death by stabbing will sometimes attempt to convince juries that a deeply penetrating stab wound serves as an indicator of murderous intent by virtue of the great force required to inflict such wounds. It is generally accepted today among experts of forensic medicine, however, that the force requisite to inflict even a deeply penetrating stab wound is minimal.8 This opinion would seem to be supported by the experience of a stage actor who inadvertently stabbed a colleague to death during a stage performance of Shakespeare's play, Romeo and Juliet. The unlucky young man delivered a thrust at the very moment his vision was inadvertently obscured by a member of the cast. Although he claimed to have felt no resistance, a post mortem examination revealed that he had penetrated the chest of the victim to a depth of eighteen centimeters.9"

"Except for bone or cartilage which has become ossified, it is the skin that offers the greatest resistance to the point of a blade. In fact, once the skin is penetrated, a blade may pass, even through costal cartilage, with disquieting ease.10 Generally, of the factors governing the ease of entry, the two most important are the sharpness of the tip of the blade and the velocity with which it contacts the skin. While the mass of the weapon is a factor in penetration, the velocity of the blade at the moment of contact is of greater importance, since the force at impact is directly proportional to the square of the velocity of the thrust.11"

8 B. Knight, Forensic Pathology (New York: 1991) 146-147.
9 Thimm (Supra n. 6), 463.
10 C. Polson, D. Gee and B. Knight, The Essentials of Forensic Medicine (Oxford: 1985)125.
11 Knight (Supra n. 8), 147.


-Max

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Clothing hampering blades seems right to me. When it comes to blades, especially impaling weapons (vs. cutting weapons), your skin is the thing protecting you. Once a knife penetrates your skin it can be amazingly deep with only a little extra force. It's very plausible to me that clothing could make a difference.

Interesting. I knew that knives could easily cause really bad wounds without much force, but my (faulty) conclusion was that since skin/body tissue doesn't offer much resistance, extra layers of cloth wouldn't help either. Thanks for the clarification.


P.S. Speaking of Jomon, this means that their armors could be made of cloth that wouldn't be encumbering but would still offer great protection.