Guide: LA R'lyeh or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Dreamlands

[Radio_Star]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Radio,

Would you consider trying something like a E3S3D3-5N4?

My thinking is as follows:

A. D3-5. D3 allows mound fiend boot strapping in death. D5 either gives you or improves your fear.
B. E3 Eliminates all the hassle of trying to get an E2 mage.
Allows dwarven hammer at con2 (FAST) for clams. Also summoning troll court.
C. e3s3 Allows crystal coins, crystal shields
D. S3 allows teleport. Downside: makes you vulnerable to mind duels. Don't get seen, domes?
E. N4 Useful for the bless, and for possibly getting globals.

Edit: Wish we could standardize magic sites to better compare variables

Getting into death via pretender is possible, but at best you're saving yourself 30 death or 40 water gems to empower a mage or summon a naiad. The Kraken comes with fear 0 which is really enough for the early expansion that it specializes in. E3 is an absolute must, but I'm not sure how quickly you can conceivably get into clams. You'll need some sort of empowerment and that takes time. Taking astral on the pretender is mighty tempting for the forging coins but as you mention, the downside is significant.

Dom9 with full negative scales except luck and magic + all the paths for underwater sites (F1A3E3W3S3D2N2) leaves you with 2 remaining points. It's my gut feeling that if you try to take the Kraken away from its job (early expansion and site searching) you'll end up marginalizing it. That being said, I'll futz around with some higher death (forego air, maybe? how useful are air gems to ryleh?) and possibly astral builds.

[chrispedersen]

Try playing with only the paths indicated. I view him as a vehicle for early expansion; after which searching; after which forging.

You get air on the visitor, you can empower although he will vanish. still, more generally useful, I think

[Squirrelloid]

I like the GK idea. I really haven't played enough with the GK. In part, I've been a little uncomfortable with early game SCs (in general) because I don't have a good feel for just how much opposition they can take (and getting your pretender killed in the first couple months is never a good sign).

I dislike the kraken because new paths are so expensive, iirc. I think you really want to rainbow because you will find a use for just about every gem type, so you want to be able to find some of every gem type.

I also actively like Death 3 as R'lyeh because I want to make my lands as undesirable for prospective invaders as possible. Having population just means people want your lands more. (Edit: And that's why we took Luck 3 in the first place - so we had an income source that wasn't population dependent).

How important are air gems to R'lyeh? Quite important for the move to land in the long term. You'll want access to some protection from archer fire, which means Perpetual Storm is decent, or crafting some staves of storms. (You can't reliably expect to have an A capable mage for Arrow Fend or similar in combat, so finding ways to make your A work for you more remotely is the best you can probably do). With A3 you can Staff of elemental mastery or RoW into A4 and you're in business. And while you can rely on stoneskin/ironskin/army of gold to make your troops resistant to arrowfire, these measures will stack with that and affect the entire battlefield from the start.

A4 also unlocks the Bag of Winds, which is an item with a start of combat summons. Throw one of those, a bottle of living water, and a wraith crown on a starspawn mage and you can feel free to teleport into PD or even weak armies with no other gear. (W1S3D2 and W1E2S3 preferred). Air also allows you to craft the eyes of aiming, which will help your evocation mages hit their targets. (Not that you care if you hit your chaffe - but you'd rather have killed more stuff).

[chrispedersen]

I'm not completely opposed to death - but getting into water as a land nation is pretty difficult already. On the plus side, its points. On the negative side Death3 kills population as fast as your dreamlands it seems. And it costs you 9% compounded income.

The difference is really between year 2 and year 3.

I also don't like so many paths on a kraken;
D/S/N: in combination with VoT gives you a complete search.

More tests!

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I'm not completely opposed to death - but getting into water as a land nation is pretty difficult already. On the plus side, its points. On the negative side Death3 kills population as fast as your dreamlands it seems. And it costs you 9% compounded income.

The difference is really between year 2 and year 3.

I also don't like so many paths on a kraken;
D/S/N: in combination with VoT gives you a complete search.

More tests!

Well, your dreamlands + Death 3 should be spreading to land with you as well. I agree, water shouldn't need so much extra discouragement, but discouraging your opponent from pushing you back into the sea is a plus in my book.

One note on Kraken vs. GK - GK is land capable out of the box, which, since crab hybrids appear to be better value for your money than just about any other normal troop, gives you early expansion capability on both land and sea.

[chrispedersen]

Why are you so opposed to illithid?
8 Illithids will paralyze 3 usual troops every turn. You hang out in the back with all your troops - they ahve paralyzed 10 troops by the time combat is joined.

The same illithids, in combat will paralyze 3 - allowing your chaff troops (atk values 8) to *hit* them.

Additionally, your illithids ROCK against kraken, and are land capable.

[Radio_Star]

Kraken paths are initially 40 and GK are 20 IIRC, -but- the Kraken's initial cost is zero. We'd do well establish the ideal paths for the pretender 1st and then establish which pretender can provide those paths with the best combat effectiveness