Man: A Bless nation in CBM 1.92?

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

That's a pretty nutty claim right there. Barring rare randoms or empowerment, Man has up to A3/W1/E1/N4 in cap, and A2/N3 everywhere. Notice how hard it is to get battlemagic out of its recruit anywheres. It can naturally only forge 2 boosters, W+1/N+1 out of the 9 total in its 4 paths.

Bandar Log is pretty bad diversity wise, but compare it to Man. Also only 4 paths, up to W1/E1/S4/N3 in cap, S2/N1 everywhere. Its natural booster access gives W+1/S+2/N+2, and all that S means communions. So better than Man.

Ashdod has F3/S3 in cap, and F2/E3/S2/D4 everywhere, and it can boost F+2/E+2/S+2/D+2. How is that not better in both breadth and depth than Man?

Eriu is the easiest, since it has exactly the same paths as Man. With the exception that it naturally gets A4, W2, and E2.

It's nice that you took the time to confirm the original point I was making, that all of those are limited to 4 paths.

As for battlemagic from recruit everywheres, they have the some of the best early-mid game evos, the lightning spells, and one of the best late game evos, storm of thorns. They can also self buff precision. Exactly how much more do you want them to be able to do.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

It's nice that you took the time to confirm the original point I was making, that all of those are limited to 4 paths.

What's with this ridiculous backpedaling? This is what you claimed before:

Originally Posted by Nightfall

It's worth noting that of those only Vanheim has definitively better access to magic; with both wider and higher paths than Man.

Mictlan and Vanheim have greater breadth in magic. Indeed, Mictlan has access to every path except earth, with death and blood available on semi-dependable randoms from turkeys, heros, and all else failing, its national Tlaloque summon.

Those nations noted all have greater depth in their 4 paths. Again, Man can natively forge only 2 out of 9 boosters in its 4 paths, and no astral rings. None of the others are that limited. Bandar's not even really limited to 4 paths, with its wide range of national summons that provide access to paths outside those needed to summon them. Ashdod can forge all the boosters in its paths plus the astral rings, and again, Eriu is just Man, but better.

As for battlemagic from recruit everywheres, they have the some of the best early-mid game evos, the lightning spells, and one of the best late game evos, storm of thorns. They can also self buff precision. Exactly how much more do you want them to be able to do.

What in the world are you talking about? Only 1/4 Mothers can cast lighning bolt. For more serious evocations, Man has to wait for Evo 5 and getting orb lightning. For better than piddling range, it needs to cast storm with a slow, fragile, and ridiculously old crone, and simultaneously render useless its excellent archers, so the 1/4 A2 Mothers can cast thunderstrike.

Bandar Log has massive communion potential, and so does Mictlan. Vanheim and Eriu can seriously pull off lightning evocations. Ashdod post CBM nerf is the only one with worse battlemagic than Man...but at least it still has early SCs.

The whole point of a bless strategy is to win or generate a large lead quickly.

You don't do that by just taking indies.

Due to lack of blessers, Man can't even translate a high bless into notably faster indy expansion the way Mictlan can, unless it wastes half its year 1 capital recruitment on otherwise worthless priests. And the point of a bless strategy is to gain a lead quickly, and use that to translate into a victory. With excellent troops bless or no bless, it's that second part that Man has a problem at.

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

What's with this ridiculous backpedaling? This is what you claimed before:

Since you have trouble comprehending English I'll highlight it for you.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

Since you have trouble comprehending English I'll highlight it for you.

So you were just making up your own nonsensical definition of "better magic"? All those nations have either more paths and equal levels, or the same number of paths at higher (thanks to better booster access) levels. Their paths also synergise better, but lets ignore that, and stick to your definition. And you're still wrong, Mictlan and Bandar Log.

Only if your incredibly bad...

It will expand faster than Mictan, without any attrition, and you should only need 2 lord wardens from the capital before your second fort takes over... Less if your a little lucky and get an indy priest province.

Do learn to read, preferably without making up your own definitions. There will be indy priests in your cap circle pretty much guaranteed. That's not the problem. The problem is Knights of Avalon expand just as well as an equal resource value of high bless Wardens, and it's equal gold value too once you factor in the early temple and indy priests. Somewhat better actually, since Knights can handle crossbows and elephants better than Wardens.

That's why you don't expand any faster with high bless than without. Unlike Mictlan, resources limit how fast you can put out secondary expansion parties.

Originally Posted by Valerius

I think Torgon is right that your build depends on your tolerance for risk. Nothing is going to change the fact that you've got no native S/D/B access. Are you willing to take a risk that you'll find some indies to help you out or do you want to make sure your pretender can break you into those paths ASAP? Personally, I'd be willing roll the dice and go with an ENS pretender and see what happens.

That's not really the issue. Yes, having a pretender that can break you into S/D is great depending on your luck with indies. But it's just as important to have a storm stave in the mid-game so you can do battle magic without needing to use a super vulnerable and slow crone, or bust out flaming arrows to compliment your excellent archers or various other assorted battle magics that your national mages can't do by themselves.

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

So you were just making up your own nonsensical definition of "better magic"?

Not only did you, once again, leave out an important word, but your lack of comprehension is not my problem.

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

Do learn to read, preferably without making up your own definitions. There will be indy priests in your cap circle pretty much guaranteed. That's not the problem.

I'll just fix that quote for you so the outright lie is more obvious.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

Not only did you, once again, leave out an important word, but your lack of comprehension is not my problem.
...
I'll just fix that quote for you so the outright lie is more obvious.

So...no actual response to points made. I've noticed you like doing that, just ignoring anything you can't respond to, but this is the first time you've ignored everything. I guess we're done here.

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

Due to lack of blessers, Man can't even translate a high bless into notably faster indy expansion the way Mictlan can, unless it wastes half its year 1 capital recruitment on otherwise worthless priests.

Only if your incredibly bad...

It will expand faster than Mictan, without any attrition, and you should only need 2 lord wardens from the capital before your second fort takes over... Less if your a little lucky and get an indy priest province.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

Due to lack of blessers, Man can't even translate a high bless into notably faster indy expansion the way Mictlan can, unless it wastes half its year 1 capital recruitment on otherwise worthless priests. And the point of a bless strategy is to gain a lead quickly, and use that to translate into a victory. With excellent troops bless or no bless, it's that second part that Man has a problem at.

You won't want to use the priests - get the lord wardens. That's who you'll want leading your raiding parties later, possibly with a magic weapon to add some punch. It's also worth noting knight commanders can also bless your troops and could make nice mini-thugs.

Thinking it over, I think it's certainly viable to play Man with a strong bless (not necessarily optimal long term - but viable). Personally I'd prefer E9N4 - net 0 encumbrance on your wardens and 4 points of reinvig for your sacred mages. When you consider the total package of reasonable cost, recruit everywhere, tough in a battle but with stealth as an option I think it's fair to say that Man's sacred troops can be considered among the best in MA.

I think Torgon is right that your build depends on your tolerance for risk. Nothing is going to change the fact that you've got no native S/D/B access. Are you willing to take a risk that you'll find some indies to help you out or do you want to make sure your pretender can break you into those paths ASAP? Personally, I'd be willing roll the dice and go with an ENS pretender and see what happens.

But, as I mentioned earlier, if you don't like leaving things to chance I think wardens are perfectly usable with a light bless (EN first, FW are also nice).

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Personally I'd prefer E9N4 - net 0 encumbrance on your wardens and 4 points of reinvig for your sacred mages.

I think that E4D9N4 is interesting, opens up all death, Lamia Queens and HiS. And you still have positive scales at Dom 8.