Mod Brazen Benevolence (Bronze Armors) - Page 3

analytic_kernel · #1 February 15th, 2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlioni

Bronze is made from copper and tin with some arsenic thrown in. In fact copper was alloyed with arsenic before tin. I believe this was because arsenic appeared naturally in/near the early copper exploitation.

Early bronze was arsenic bronze. However, alloying copper with tin produces harder armor, and I think it was this alloy which was used for armoring after it was developed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlioni

Bronze also enjoys the advantage of being able to be cast, and your forge doenst need to be as hot. In Dominions 3 terms I would think Bronze would be more expensive than iron because of the need fot imports, but would cost fewer resources due to the casting process.

Well, you can cast iron too; that's what "cast iron" is.

In the readme with this mod, there is a brief musing about whether resource gathering costs should be considered as part of the rcost or not. If one wants to consider them, then that could lead down a slippery slope about whether the cost of making the chain for chain mail is being properly accounted for...

For me, the question is whether forging iron or casting bronze is cheaper, and whether this should be reflected in any rcost changes for bronze armors. Game play considerations also enter the picture, and one can probably rationalize adjustments in whatever manner necessary to satisfy them.

(I.e., one can find a way to justify penalizing something if it starts to seem too good.)

whiplashomega · #2 February 17th, 2009, 06:35 PM

I know cast iron is incredibly heavy, even compared to other irons, does cast bronze have a similar comparative increase in weight?

analytic_kernel · #3 February 17th, 2009, 08:01 PM

Chris, I'm guessing that metallicity is probably just flagged by a bit. I guess we could request a new modding command to twiddle that bit, if someone hasn't already done so.

Greg, interesting about the recycling aspect. Probably the oxides formed on the surface of the bronze add impurities. But, I'm no metallurgist.... I do remember reading that recasting was sometimes needed to repair bronze in cases where an iron implement could simply be brought back to a forge and hammered out.

Whiplash, I don't how much greater the density of cast iron is over wrought iron. I suppose the crystalline structure could be different due to the different process (and small amounts of other elements), but that's speculation. However, my understanding is that cast iron is inferior to wrought iron when it comes to armoring. So, we are probably comparing bronze to wrought iron. The densities for those are about 8.5 to 8.7 g/cc and 7.9 g/cc, respectively.

Endoperez · #4 February 16th, 2009, 01:32 PM

I don't think it's moddable. It would be a great idea, though.

chrispedersen · #5 February 17th, 2009, 12:46 AM

Well its there in edi's db. And you're right, you can't directly attack the problem - but you can get around it.

If you manually create a new armor called bronze plate etc - set the encumbrance et. al- presumably you wouldn't get the metal flag set. It is quite the pain, because then you have to manually equip your troops with the new armor.

On the flip side - it could be an advantage as well - only give the troops the new armor...

Edit: You know I wonder if any armor that has a value > x has that flag set?

Gregstrom · #6 February 17th, 2009, 06:23 PM

To add to Scarlioni/analytic_kernel:

Arsenic is certainly found near tin - I couldn't say if it's found near copper. It is IIRC easier to refine from ores than tin, which might help explain why it was used first.

Also, IIRC bronze is harder to recycle than iron. I have heard that recasting bronze has a bad effect on its quality, making it harder and more brittle - not a terribly good thing for armaments. Damaged iron items may be readily reforged though.

Gregstrom · #7 February 18th, 2009, 11:39 AM

The other reason Egypt might have carried on using bronze is that it was a bit of a technological backwater over most of its history. Ironworking was a high-tech military secret for a surprisingly long while.

JimMorrison · #8 February 20th, 2009, 04:26 AM

At this point, I'm mostly in agreement with you. Really after all of the digging, and the mulling, it started to feel like (considering 3 distinct and disparate ages) that too high a level of realism isn't achievable without huge overhauls in the recruitables, including creating many new types of armor, tweaking gold costs, blah blah, tons of stuff way beyond the intended scope of the mod.

So to sum up - It really seems like ultimately the actual Encumbrance difference between Bronze and Iron is minimal, and too small to simulate in Dominions terms (Bronze won't be 33% or 50% more Encumbering), and because of the small numbers, probably wouldn't be noticeable until Steel armors, if at all. Likewise, differences in Protective ability were not overly profound, other than if we say that all Bronze is cost, and all Iron is wrought (for sake of game), in which case the wrought items have greater density, and then of course there is a very noticeable jump again, to Steel.

Then it's just a matter of looking at the various armors, and trying to determine "does the actual design of a Hoplite Breastplate differ significantly enough in design properties from an Iron Breastplate to justify a change in values". I guess at a certain point, you allow some things to have higher or lower numbers just because they have a different name, and the intent is to have different capabilities of the units.

Grrr, I'm glad I joined into this conversation, but I am also sad.

I'd imagine you feel the same way, by now.

analytic_kernel · #9 February 20th, 2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

it started to feel like (considering 3 distinct and disparate ages) that too high a level of realism isn't achievable without huge overhauls in the recruitables, including creating many new types of armor, tweaking gold costs, blah blah, tons of stuff way beyond the intended scope of the mod.

AFAIK, the prot ranges for mundane armors could be expanded, but then all of the magic armor prots would also have to be bumped up and weapon damages would have to be changed as well. A Dom 3 rescaling project might be neat - but, yeah, definitely beyond the scope of this mod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

Then it's just a matter of looking at the various armors, and trying to determine "does the actual design of a Hoplite Breastplate differ significantly enough in design properties from an Iron Breastplate to justify a change in values". I guess at a certain point, you allow some things to have higher or lower numbers just because they have a different name, and the intent is to have different capabilities of the units.

Actually, I have no problem with two functionally equivalent things having the same name. I think it is kind of stylish, actually. (I did that with the Bronze Scale and iron Scale Mail armors, but another poster seemed uncomfortable with that.) Probably a matter of differing tastes....

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

Grrr, I'm glad I joined into this conversation, but I am also sad.

I'd imagine you feel the same way, by now.

Hey, glad you dropped by. You challenged a hidden assumption or two, and that is usually a good thing.

analytic_kernel · #10 February 20th, 2009, 05:18 PM

Greg, I think encumbrance is strictly related to weight. A defence penalty can be given to account for other things, such as ill-fitting armor, restricted neck or torso motion, restricted field of vision, etc....

Redeyes has a point about the scale armors, but I think even cuirasses were adjustable, because of separate front and back plates.