OT: Rating the President

[rextorres]

Originally posted by Askan Nightbringer:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

Less so than some web site owned by some random person.

In the US, poor people pay no to almost no taxes. They _can't_ get a tax cut without being given tax money back.

Most media commentators are random people with their own beliefs.

And do do you guys have sales tax over there? How bout petrol tax? Excise taxes on smokes and alcohol? Stamp duty on the purchase of houses? No taxes at all based on consumption?

Askan

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Yup . . . those are other taxes people conveniently forget about - some states even have a sales tax in California it is 7.5% - that's like a VAT.

[ February 07, 2003, 06:18: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[Fyron]

We were talking about income tax...

Most media commentators are random people with their own beliefs.

Yes they are. I think I made a point about them earlier...

[ February 07, 2003, 09:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[dogscoff]

He never considers the sacrifices and hard work that the rich man had to make to get that wealth. He doesn't respect the ingenuity of the rich man to succeed in a competitive market.

Hang on, not every multi-millionaire with his finger in the political pie is a hero of capitalism. Sure, a rich guy might slog through regular 70 hour weeks but if he is doing all that work to line his own pockets and shaft the rest of the world in the process then I'd rather he stayed at home and put his feet up by the pool.

I will concede that there are plenty of rich ppl out there who pulled themselves up from the lower wage brackets to make their fortunes. As long as they got where they are honestly then I can respect them and sympathise with their claims to a fair deal.

However, these all american heroes of capitalism are probably not in the majority, and even if they are they won't necessarily have much power. That is held by another class of rich guy: The one who didn't work for his money. The rich guys currently running the world (for example... ooohhh... let's just pluck a name out of the air... say, someone like George W Bush) tend to be rich because of "old money", first established generations ago by God only knows what means.

The inheritors of this wealth all too often have no understanding of the lives of the little people they use and discard: They were handed their power on a silver spoon and because they didn't earn it they never learned about using it responsibly. All they value is their own position, and they will quite happily pollute, exploit, decieve, despoil and destroy to continue the family legacy and keep power out of the hands of the plebs.

These people should be forced to make a significant contribution to society because you can be damn sure they will be doing everything in their considerable power to dodge most of it. Until a culture emerges among the inherited rich to bring up their children into a tradition of benevolence and social responsibility they should be chased out of politics by angry mobs waving ****ty sticks and flaming torches.

The poor man believes that he should have as much as the rich without having to work for it.

No, the (average) poor man just wants to have a chance to earn a decent quality of life and the assurance that if fate drops a bomb on him he won't end up homeless, starving or wasting away from a curable disease like some medieval peasant at the dawn of the twenty-first century.

Not sure what any of this has to do with the US tax system, other than the fact that I wouldn't trust most politicians as far as I could spit them when it comes to introducing a fair or honest system.

[Fian]

Thanks for the responses about the SS and all. Personally, I think the system is fair as-is. Do you want to see a reduction in the Social Security tax?

Now in to the other person's response.

"Hang on, not every multi-millionaire with his finger in the political pie is a hero of capitalism. Sure, a rich guy might slog through regular 70 hour weeks but if he is doing all that work to line his own pockets and shaft the rest of the world in the process then I'd rather he stayed at home and put his feet up by the pool."

What rich people do is CREATE jobs. That is the best help that the poor have. I am sure that you can find those that are bad and abuse the power that money brings, but the point is that all-in-all rich people are a great benefit to people. You take the rich people out of America, you end up with lots of poor people in greater poverty with no work.

"That is held by another class of rich guy: The one who didn't work for his money. "

In their case, they inherited it. If I have a billion dollars, should I not be able to give it to my children? What is so evil about that? Would you in your righteousness take it away and give it to Uncle Sam?

"The inheritors of this wealth all too often have no understanding of the lives of the little people they use and discard: They were handed their power on a silver spoon and because they didn't earn it they never learned about using it responsibly. All they value is their own position, and they will quite happily pollute, exploit, decieve, despoil and destroy to continue the family legacy and keep power out of the hands of the plebs."

One, a rich person is not obligated to understand the life of a poor person, any more than a poor person is obligated to understand the life of a rich person. Not understanding the poor is not a sin. Accusing the rich of exploting the poor is totally unfair. We don't have sweatshops in the US. If you had the money and power, would you exploit people? I would hope the answer is no. Why do you think a rich person is any different? You have made a serious accusation against a class of people without any evidence to back it up.

It should also be noted that while their may be the "bad rich" who supposedly deserve to be taxed into oblivion, income tax is not set up to punish the bad rich. Every rich person is taxed. You are punishing an entire class of people for the sins of a few.

[rextorres]

Originally posted by Fian:
Thanks for the responses about the SS and all. Personally, I think the system is fair as-is. Do you want to see a reduction in the Social Security tax?

Not necessarily, but, some people claim that the rich pay too much taxes - when in reality they pay about the same or a little less in taxes than everyone else. People use this argument to justify the proposed tax cut when in reality (if you look at the whole picture) the tax cut is unfair.

[ February 07, 2003, 17:50: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[kalthalior]

I hestitate to get re-engaged in this topic, but I would like to make a point about SocSec. When it was implemented, there were something like 13 workers for every person drawing funds. Now that ratio is approximately 3:1, and will drop to 2:1 in the near future. And the funds have been used as general revenue to fund the government since the inception of the program, all the recent talk about the "lockbox" was simply the result of the concern about the changing demographics that threaten the program.
Another point is that if you consider ALL taxes, most US citizens work 5+ months out of the year to pay for the various levels of government.

[Fyron]

Dogscoff, most of the rich people in the US are first generation money, not "old money".