My AI Design Q&A

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
Cybersol, how is it my Last edit was
June 12, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: JLS'

And you have something different then my final post?

Your post 'posted June 12, 2003 01:28'

You made me think and go test things so much that I started to post before your edit, but finished afterwards.

Originally posted by JLS:
So would you say, if the AI does not install cloaking, do you think, Cybersol, the AI does a sufficient job, Sweeping mines for the Main AI Fleets.

The AI settings for Base se4 are Ships don't move through minefields := false
Will this not yield ship after ship, sacrificing itself until the Minefield is empty?

The AI minesweeping is defenitely not optimal, but it is somewhat sufficient. Case in point, A pair of AI's facing off don't remain sealed off from each other forever. The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal.

I use true for ships don't move through minefields, but unmodded hulls don't have minesweeping capability like in AIC

[Master Belisarius]

[quote]Originally posted by cybersol:

The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal.

I use true for ships don't move through minefields, but unmodded hulls don't have minesweeping capability like in AIC

This is exactly my approach... and the approach of most of the "modern" modders.

[JLS]

bumped

[ June 12, 2003, 03:49: Message edited by: JLS ]

[cybersol]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
From scratch??
It's something against my principles, I thought. Never started a Cobol program or an AI from zero!!!!

Yeah, it seemed like a good idea when I started, but it takes longer than you would think. At least it forces me to learn about and make a decision on everything. So far I'm just focusing on the bussiness end of the AI, not the political or speech, etc.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
A cloaked ship can't build anything... but as you noted in your second post, I think the best use for these ships is try to recover damaged ships that can't move...
I dislike when the space yard ship build something... usually they build Defense bases in middle of nowhere, or build colony ships and send those ships to colonize planets without load population first (and then the new colony will be useless for the AI!).

Well that explains why you cloak them. I'm implementing space yard ships now, so I have not tested them. My impression from previous Posts is that they are supposed to go to a front line resupply base and construct from there. If they indeed build lots of stuff in the middle of nowhere then I will have to cloak them or not build them as well.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I only saw this behavior when an AI reach the DN, but maybe the trigger is that after some time without redesign a ship, the AI decide to redesign using the previous ship design with different weapon...

It works better now that I call the destroyer and lower "light attack ship" and the light cruisers to battle cruisers "main attack ship". I hope it doesn't decided to produce more light attack ships later in the game though. CSM1 destroyers versus dreadnaughts would be amusing but not effective.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
The problem is that considering the free space, the AI will try to use the most advanced Armor...

Conclusion: if you want to use a ship with lot of Standard Armors (not Scattering!), you should not research After Armor III!

Yeah, I reached that conclusion also. If the armor were give an ability like "normal armor" and that could be called in the misc section that would work SO much better. Alas that requires modding though.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I think the AI always check the 1-11 every turn. My guess is that the AI always start from the number 1 in the queue and check if need to build the item or not. One after other.
For this, if the queue is very large, the AI have problems to reach the Lastest items in the queue... because always is building trying to replace the loses in the first places of the queue.

AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. This is a really interesting inquiry, and might deserve its own thread, but it would be all you guys anyway.

MB, what you describe is what I though at first also. AI_Research and AI_Planet_Types definitely work the way you describe, but they don't loop and are not numbered. I will have to test this out some more, because as you say it determines optimal queue length and behaivor.

[JLS]

AI Kamikaze Mine Sweeper

This is indeed, may be the only current approach for base se4.

How may ships would you expect to be in your fleet?
How many fleets do you expect your AI to make by turn 400?

Kami mine Sweepers, what hull would you say would be appropriate and how many Mine Sweeping Components would be installed on a good Kami Mine Sweeper?

How many Kami Mine Sweepers would you expect to be Sufficient for one AI fleet?

How many AI Kami Mine Sweepers in Total, do you think would be required for all your AI Fleets?

Please, do not consider AI vs AI, but consider a good Human Player will have a Solid 100 Mine field probably back to back, for your AI to over come.

[ June 12, 2003, 04:12: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

Bump

Originally posted by cybersol:
The AI minesweeping is defenitely not optimal, but it is somewhat sufficient. Case in point, A pair of AI's facing off don't remain sealed off from each other forever. The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal.

I use true for ships don't move through minefields

What if, the AI Player (1) had minefield that was marked belonging to Player (2) from first contact. Player (2) is 3 Systems away and a treaty is signed between the (1) and (2). Before AI Player (1) cleared Players (2) Minefield that is 3 Systems away from AI (1)players HW.

Now AI Player (1) makes first contact with Player (3) Minefield; about 15 turns after AI Players (1) agreement with Player (2), 6 Systems away from Players (1) Home World. AI player (1) and (3) almost immediately have hostilities.

With this scenario how do you think, AI player (1) will use his Mine Sweepers...

Please, no whos on first

[ June 15, 2003, 19:28: Message edited by: JLS ]

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
AI Kamikaze Mine Sweeper

This is indeed, may be the only current approach for base se4.

How may ships would you expect to be in your fleet?
How many fleets do you expect your AI to make by turn 400?

Kami mine Sweepers, what hull would you say would be appropriate and how many Mine Sweeping Components would be installed on a good Kami Mine Sweeper?

How many Kami Mine Sweepers would you expect to be Sufficient for one AI fleet?

How many AI Kami Mine Sweepers in Total, do you think would be required for all your AI Fleets?

I think we are understanding each other, but just to make sure. I used kamikaze meaning suicidal in reference to how the AI uses "Mine Sweeper" Design Type ships. These do not join fleets, so I also mentioned that I use a "Kamikaze Attack Ship" or "Boarding Ship" Design Type ship with minesweeper for fleet use.

So I am still testing, but right now I am using a "Kamikaze Attack Ship" class design in a fleet minesweeping and fleet repair role. Fleets are set to be around size 20 at the start to 60 or more in the late game. These support ships have 5 to 10 minesweeping components and 0-2 repair components as they increase from LC to DN. I am putting these in fleets at a 1 to 3 ratio with the main attack ship so far. Overkill for the late game probably, but seems good for late early-mid game when the AI has the most problems with mine fields.

If the don't move through minefield flag is true remember the fleet will not move through marked minefield until the minesweeper class clears them. But they will still walk over new mine fields like they are not there. If it is false then you will lose some scouts and colony ships unnecessarily but your fleets should be move straight through.

As for the other lone wolf "Mine Sweeper" class ships, they are basically all minesweepers because they are going to die on a large minefield at some point. If they run into a fleet they are toast anyway because they are alone. That is why I called them suicidal.

As I said, I'm still testing and this just what I am using now. MB and others have much more experience. Hope this helps.