Torpedo question

[deccan]

Originally posted by Maerlyn:
now this is a really good discussion, I learn a lot from this so thanx a lot.

I'm sure all the BGNW players will agree that the Last thing they want is for Maerlyn to learn more new tricks.

[Fyron]

if you ask me: its 2:2 until now, but both of you should try to stick to the assumptions made in the beginning and not bring in possible additional weapons or other components in order to strenghten your arguments. (as both of you did)

Well since Shield Depleters make up half of the APB strategy... Generally, people go DUC > PPB > SD + APB. The PPB devastes ships with standard shields, and the SD can devastate ships with any shielding (phased included). IDs are just icing on the cake. Of course, Torpedo ships can benefit from SD and ID too.

Oh, and another point... multiplex tracking helps APB ships more than Torpedo ships. The higher damage per shot from the Torpedos can lead to more damage getting wasted in the Last shot that destroys a ship from the Torpedo than you lose from the APB.

[PvK]

I was trying to keep the points focused to a few examples of what I meant when I said Fryon was over-generalizing in specific Posts. His Last counter-arguments tend to smear between issues, which would be a bit of work to go back and re-direct.

So, just a few clarfications:

* Ya, it's 1 or 2 combat speed difference between baseships and battleships with the same equipment. However, it's still not enough to keep baseships from having certain efficiencies, such as better mounts and the ability to pile about twice as much equipment on per set of other components, etc. My point was simply that they are not "extremely inefficient" - rather, they have some strengths and some weaknesses.

* Fryon wrote: "in fact, you were the one advocating using torpedoes against someone using APBs and max range!" Not even! I was just explaining what advantages there were in that style of fighting, while repeatedly saying that I thought they were still a weaker weapon than APB XII so I'd be surprised if it made the difference. What I was arguing about, were Fryon's exaggerations on other details.

* He's continuing to miss or dodge the point that while reloading and unable to fire, it's better to be as far away as possible, instead of close. He's either failing to understand what I've explained several times, or hoping no one will notice that he's just repeating an unrelated argument which I agree with, that unmodded APB XII does do a lot more total damage than Quantum Torps.

* As for statements about the frequency of battles so huge that all ships are smashed in one turn, etc., that largely depends upon circumstances. In my experience, I've seen many battles where Max Range/Don't Get Hurt has allowed a smaller fleet to defeat a much larger one. I've also watched replays with hundreds of ships in them, where many ships were not destroyed on the first turn they came under fire. Many of course were destroyed in one turn, so it's true that often you don't get a chance to run away, but sometimes you do, and it only takes sometimes to give an advantage, even if a slight one, which is what I had meant to argue.

I'd also add a point, that Max/Don't Get Hurt tends to be more of an advantage to the smaller fleet rather than the larger one, since it reduces the amount of contact with the enemy compared to more aggressive movement orders. When you have the advantage of numbers and/or a slight disadvantage in quality, and in many other cases, Optimal/Short/PointBlank can offer advantages, by getting more of your ships as close as possible.

PvK

[Rollo]

Torpedoes cannot target fighters. That is actually an advantage in larger fleet battles (given that you have enough PD, of course). While APB or PPB ships waste shots on fighter stacks, torpedoes will deal with the real threats (i.e. ships). So they are, in a sense, 'cannon fodder skipping' weapons.
I ran some tests a while back that showed if fighters are involved, the battle can swing decisively in favor of the torpedo using fleet.

[Atrocities]

This topic has turned out to be one of the best strategy threads I have read in a good long long time.

[SpaceBadger]

My problem with using Max Range strategy was with the combat AI of my ships in strategic combat. In this game I had some fairly decent APBs with much better range than the low-level PPBs that this particular AI enemy had. Neither of us had much in the way of shields, so the shield penetration of their PPBs was not really a factor. I figured to take advantage of that range difference by setting my ships to Max Range, thinking that I would be making hits on the enemy while staying out of their range entirely. Big surprise! My fleet was destroyed with almost no damage to the enemy, so I ran the Replay to find out what happened.

Our ships had started combat all mixed together, and the problem was that my ships were all scrambling to get away to max range, meanwhile getting the snot pounded out of them. Instead of firing while up close, and then seeking to move away to max range, my ships were moving away, then firing from the increased range, with reduced damage and chance to hit. Then the enemy would move up close and paste my ships from short range. Repeat a few times, and my fleet was gone.

I hope in SEV we get some smarter combat AI, that will fire the guns while at best range in the maneuvers. That may be before moving if you are trying to move away, or after moving if you are trying to get closer, or in mid-move if doing a hit-and-run with fighters - but not at your furthest point from the enemy!

SpaceBadger

[PvK]

An awful starting position can make all the difference. It seems to me though that usually Max/Don't Get Hurt does fire before moving away, so I'm not sure what occurred in your situation to make it move and then fire from further away.

The tac AI can do some other silly things sometimes. The Max Range strategy can also be messed up when a ship ends up running away from the ship it's firing on, but towards other enemy ships, when it doesn't have to. And many other weird possibilities.

PvK