Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War

AMF · #1 June 16th, 2004, 06:10 PM

But, dude, uh....you haven't seen the movie. How do you know? I mean, ad hominem and all that, right?

My opinion? I think that our society, especially lately, is too partisan and has lost the ability to debate logically. Personal example: I haven't seen Passion of the Christ movie, so I try not to comment on it. I'd like to see it, I've even brought up the idea of seeing it to my wife. That didn't go too far, let me tell ya. I say, see it so I can comment on it from an informed perspective, she says not a chance she's seeing it.

Another example, a bit more personal: For years I was pro gun-control. But I was never really informed on the issue, I admit. After many discussions with others who were very pro-NRA (some of them even having been in "militias") I got a new appreciation of the whole issue. While I disagree with much of their reasoning, I do understand how they feel the way they do and nowadays I'm pretty open about gun ownership.

Now, admittedly, some issues have chasms that people can't bridge since they are values-based, rather than process-based or fact-based. Abortion is the perrenial example. I think I have a pretty good handle on the arguments on both sides of the issue, and, alas, in the end it comes down to values - not facts, or anything else.

So, for those reasons, I do read Fox News, I do listen to O'Reilly (when I've the time) and I do thumb through both conservative and progressive news magazines, etc...

I guess th epoint being is that, from Logic 101, any given argument must be judged on its merits alone, not on the person making the argument.

Thought experiment: if "Farenheit 9/11" had been made by Rush Limbaugh but was otherwise exactly the same, would you see it?

Just my .02c...

Alarik

Quote:

Originally posted by Atrocities:
...there is very little truth to his subjective - decidedly one sided - attack on Bush.

[ June 16, 2004, 17:11: Message edited by: alarikf ]

Atrocities · #2 June 16th, 2004, 06:28 PM

You make good points, but the problem with Moore is that he HATES debating his point of view. He just wants everyone to accept it as reality when in fact it is just jibberish and conspiricy theories.

There is no debating this movie. It is a one sided representation of one mans hatred of another. Nuff said.

Why would I want to pay Moore to see his no counter point documentarial attack on the Bush when he himself has admitted that it is a bit "far fetched" and such. Hell if Disney pulled it from the US market then you know there was something wrong with it.

(edit) I may not have seen this latest movie but I have seen Roger and Me and his tv spots where he took the NRA interview completely out of context and made the entire organization out to be the next Nazi's of America.

Many phraised Moore as a man of the people and thanked him for his work on exposing the evil within the NRA. (LOL) Then when the NRA published the whole interview and showed the world what he did, and well his credibility went out the window.

With Mr. Moore it is all about credibility; he has none. He makes documentaries/movies based on his view of the subject and does not allow for any other interpitation. That makes his works one sided and open to attack. If he would do a real movie about the facts and have counter point, then no one would go see them. So again, he sticks to his one sided skewed view of a subject and ramps up all the publicity and controversy he can get in order to get people to watch his movies.

The thing is he is a great story tellor, I would love to see what he could do if he put aside his politic views and made a real documentary based on real facts and not conspiricy.

I recall in the earily 90's he was going to do a documentary on how NASA faked the moon landing and how they dilibrately blew up the Challenger in order to kill a whistle blower. That project was understandably declined by every one to whom he pitched it. (Thank God.)

Moore has a talent for P/O people and it is really a shame that he doesn't put his gift to better use in making movies and or documentaries that everyone can enjoy.

In the end whatever side you choose it all boils down to what you believe. I like the fact that some people choose to be informed and refuse to eat the crap the our media is fixated upon shovelling. But honestly this whole thing is just one long chapter in human history. In the end we will be right back where we started having learned nothing and forgotten everything.

And the page turns.

Quote:

Thought experiment: if "Farenheit 9/11" had been made by Rush Limbaugh but was otherwise exactly the same, would you see it?

No I would not. Again it boils down to a one side view. I just want the full picture not someones subjective views on it who refuse to listen to or suffor counter opinions.

[ June 16, 2004, 17:44: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

PvK · #3 June 16th, 2004, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dogscoff:
...
Are you sure you're watching the news and not the Cosby Show?
...

Good point... The Cosby Show is way more intelligent and open-minded than the current US entertainment/corporateagenda/news/entertainment/industry.

PvK

Slynky · #4 June 16th, 2004, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:
Originally posted by dogscoff:
...
Are you sure you're watching the news and not the Cosby Show?
...

Good point... The Cosby Show is way more intelligent and open-minded than the current US entertainment/corporateagenda/news/entertainment/industry.

PvK

Actually, I read (a long time ago) that the Cosby Show contained subtle racism...that there was an intent in the show to show caucasions in the same kind of negative light that some many shows (before that) showed African-Americans.

PvK · #5 June 16th, 2004, 06:45 PM

Attrocities, even if I accept all your premises as fact without questioning, the logic of what you wrote seems absent.

You acknowldge logic, and then dismiss it based on fixed belief:

Quote:

Originally posted by Atrocities:
You make good points, but the problem with Moore is that he HATES debating his point of view.
... and ...
There is no debating this movie. It is a one sided representation of one mans hatred of another. Nuff said.

Then you write as if you know both Moore's intention and the facts:

Quote:

He just wants everyone to accept it as reality when in fact it is just jibberish and conspiricy theories.

Then, I certainly hope your Last line is ironic and not serious:

Quote:

... Hell if Disney pulled it from the US market then you know there was something wrong with it.

What's sad is that Baptist/corporate Disney does determine a significant part of Americans' education and exposure to ideas, by its huge presence in the entertainment media.

Not to mention Fox and the rest of the corporate US "news" media, with their IQ 90 or less target demo pretending to fill the role of journalists, and thereby obstructing public contact with intelligent journalism.

PvK

PvK · #6 June 16th, 2004, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Slynky:

quote:
Originally posted by PvK:

quote:
Originally posted by dogscoff:
...
Are you sure you're watching the news and not the Cosby Show?
...

Good point... The Cosby Show is way more intelligent and open-minded than the current US entertainment/corporateagenda/news/entertainment/industry.

PvK
Actually, I read (a long time ago) that the Cosby Show contained subtle racism...that there was an intent in the show to show caucasions in the same kind of negative light that some many shows (before that) showed African-Americans.

Ok. I omitted the background that I'm no fan nor advocate of the Cosby Show, either.

PvK

Slynky · #7 June 16th, 2004, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atrocities:
There is no debating this movie. It is a one sided representation of one mans hatred of another. Nuff said.

Why would I want to pay Moore to see his no counter point documentarial attack on the Bush when he himself has admitted that it is a bit "far fetched" and such.

Well, to extract a quote from below:

"But, really, in the end, not seeing "F9/11" would be like allowing your first amendment rights to be abrogated, no matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat."

Personally, you're free to feel how you feel (in fact, I served to help maintain those freedoms) but I have to agree with the above remark. I, being a somewhat intelligent and open-minded individual, have a hard time understanding people who hate something and do so without the privilege of having firsthand knowledge of it. Good thing everyone doesn't do that all the time, or so-and-so would would hate Asians merely because of all the stories his (biased) friends told him.

Me? I'm not scared of looking into something I disagree with just to see if all the related material I based my opinions on prior to this event were, in fact, erroneous themselves! Currently, on the US/Iraq topic, many many more highly educated/informed people than you and I have began to wonder what the heck was going on as there still have been no weapons of mass destruction and just recently, a panel has shown there to be (it seems) no connection between Al Queda and Iraq. You would think intelligent and open-minded people would begin asking questions instead of blindly accepting what the administration told them (us) over a year ago.