c'tis themes

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
Just my opinions but;

The elite warriors are the bread and butter for C'tis, just like Dom I.

I know that. They're a bit costly in the beginning though. But once my main army of LI and Swamp Guards is built, I switch to elites (still build some SG to hold the center of the line, though - until I reach Mass Protection).

Furthermore fort defense is nonsense. What does extra fort defense buy you?

One thing that may be very important, depending on the circumstances: time.

Do not plan around having your forts under siege. That is planning towards your own defeat. Take a better admin fort, so you have more gold, so you can make more troops, so you win in the field.

That's your theory. I think you overrate the extra gold you get from the high-admin forts, and you don't take into account an important thing: an enemy army that's pinned for 2 more turns outside your walls is an army that lost 2 turns - that also has a cost, and a far higher one than that extra elite warrior/turn you recruited in your fortified city. I don't plan for defeat, but if I am invaded, I want my enemy to pay for it.

[licker]

Another thought on fort admin...

In Dom2 it will only really help you in high income provinces, building a high admin fort in a province with an income less than 20 would get you at most 5 extra gc (if I understand how the new system works).

However, for strategic reasons you may want (or indeed need) your forts in low income provinces, so the admin value is not the primary consideration for those forts. I suppose the question is how much do you gain from building high admin forts in every high income province, vs. taking better def, lower design point cost, cheaper, faster forts?

Anyway... C'tis playing Miasma benefits more from high def forts than other nations do, since the effects of prolonged exposure to the Miasma domain will slowly destroy armies. Of course the enemy can try to get the C'tis domain down before he starts the seige, but that's just more time and effort required on his part.

[apoger]

>So you'd just drown your enemies in fragile units that are cheap? The advantage outside of cheapness that these guys have over other C'tis units is speed, and they arn't *that* much faster. -edit--- morale is 2 higher than SG...

It's a combination of higher morale, large numbers due to low resource cost, and most of all the damage delt by two attacks. The bite attack is almost as strong as the regular C'tissian troops spear attack, plus they get a much higher damage trident attack.

I do use the LI also. I did mention them, however they take a beating from arrows, so I tend to change over to Elite Warriors. Still they are one of the few light troops worth making.

Swamp Guard don't combine well with the other troops becuase they are much slower. Plus they can only be made in small numbers and are a shard low on morale for heavy troops. I only use them if I need a large screen of troops that can absorb missile fire.

One mistake from the post that started this theme. I do use poison slingers, but only in small numbers. Their use is so specialized that I don't consider them regular troops. I make armies of undead using reanimation. I place 5 slingers behind 50 undead. This combo works very well for busting up high quality enemy armies in multiplayer. I wouldn't waste it versus the computer. The undead are immune to poison. Enemies get jammed up fighting the undead and are forced to fight in the poison clouds. Undead losses tend to be high, but the extended exposure to poison can take a tremendous number of quailty enemy troops down. Mannikins work just as well as reanimations.


Firblog fortresses were a huge thing in Dom I, but I am finding them much more rare in Dom II. It's a shame, as they were one of the hidden benefits of earth magic.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by licker:
you must research pretty slowly though, especially with magic at 0.

Shamen are still cheap good researchers at 4 RP/turn.

Empoisoner + LK is 390 gold, so you'll only have maybe 110 to spend on troops in the first couple turns, that's 11 LI...

That's ~50 LI after 3 turns. Just ran a 5-turn test to check, had just 50 to attack in turn 4. The dominion got a nice boost in turn 2, though (+3). Reached 6 in turn 4. You can get a bit more LIs with a fortified city (a good castle to have if you're a Swamp Guard addict).

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
The bite attack is almost as strong as the regular C'tissian troops spear attack,

Well, the regular C'tissian also use high-damage falchions a lot. Hmmm, with all these new cheap berserk spells and the better nature magic on Marshmasters, maybe the dual-wielding Falchioners will become C'tis troops of choice soon. And move 2/10. What's not to like?

Firblog fortresses were a huge thing in Dom I, but I am finding them much more rare in Dom II.

Bad luck, perhaps? I've found plenty in my own tests.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by apoger:
Just my opinions but;

The elite warriors are the bread and butter for C'tis, just like Dom I. If not using them then use the LI. All the rest of C'tissian troops are second rate. The only other troop I'd make is the Swamp Guard, and only under limited circumstances.

Even with the better defenses of some of the forts, I'd sooner chew off my left leg than take a fort other than the fortified city or wizards tower. Even with lower admin effects, the extra gold is clutch. Furthermore fort defense is nonsense. What does extra fort defense buy you? Some smug emotional feeling that you are doing some extra damage to someone as they remove you from the game? Pointless. Do not plan around having your forts under siege. That is planning towards your own defeat. Take a better admin fort, so you have more gold, so you can make more troops, so you win in the field, so you never have to defend your own forts. Plan for victory. If you plan for defeat you are going to get what you planned for.

An enemy killed by your arrow towers (or in Miasma's case, by your dominion while he sits outside staring at your City Guards) is just as dead as one killed in the field. Being seiged is not necessarily a defeat. Of course it's annoying if they storm you successfully - but that's one of the reasons it's so hard to find out what the beseiged army has, it makes storming a crapshoot (doubly so if you're storming a hill fort or a mountain citadel). A failed storm attempt can be ruinous - and waiting around in Miasma dominion while you bring more troops could be equally costly.

Also, better admin forts no longer get you huge amounts of extra gold as they did in Dom I (this is a good thing IMO).

I think assuming that you will never have to defend your own forts is arrogant to the point of idiocy. If you really have that huge a margin of superiority over your opponents it doesn't matter what fort you take.

Furthermore if the fort buys you enough time to bring up a reinforcing army and coordinate it with a sortie (while your opponent hesitates to expose more troops to Miasma or starvation)...

[Keir Maxwell]

I like Swamp Guards as pretty much everyting else gets shot to pieces and somebodies got to take the arrows. Problem is do I like SGs enough to pay the race design costs involved in getting enough resources to really use them? This was always the dilema which hung C'tis in Dom I for me and as yet I haven't been convinced C'tis is free of it. As it seems you can build SGs everywhere the dilema may not be so bad. Particularily if you intend to use small unit of SG's almost exclusively as pin cushions.

As people have said using Undead to take the arrows is one way but you do lose them. In Dom 1 I often used a really small unit of SGs and relied on them not routing off screen due to their slow speed.

Looking at the serpent dancers (sacred dudes) I wonder if there is some way of making them work with a water based pretender so that their defense becomes absurd and they get an extra attack? Obviously a screen of undead is an option vs arrows and perhaps using elite warrios to race around the flank and take out the archers - though its cheaper to rout indie's than get in behind them and have to kill everyone. If you use undead to take the shots you could combo in poison slingers.

The most promising option for me at this point is some sort of fear/bless tomb race which tries to scare its opponents away. I still haven't done the testing to see if I can get it to work and there are alot of pitfalls to overcome. Still if I can get the start to work then there is hope.

I haven't really looked at the Miasma theme yet but would approach it something like - high defense Stronghold (Hill Fortress - maybe Fortress if its tough enough) plus Miasma and reasonably powerful dominion in a race planning for a long term win through insane death magic. Quite a focused/tight theme even if not a standard power approach.

cheers

Keir