Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

[Patrik]

Did you consider air 4 (or 3) instead of astral? If you bring a Seithkona with your Wyrm, you can cast Luck from the start anyway and easily reach Body ethereal.

You would be lacking Astral Shield (which is nice) and Astral Weapon. OTOH, you would gain Mirror Image and Mist Form, have Cloud Trapezee for strategic movement, not having to worry about Mind Duel and add a magic field to your nation (which would then only be lacking earth and fire magic). What do you think?

Edit: Because I can only count to seven

[ February 09, 2004, 15:03: Message edited by: Patrik ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Patrik:
Did you consider air 4 (or 3) instead of astral?

Yes, I did. Astral is by far stronger, IMO, for the defense of a Wyrm SC. If I were to choose a different path, it would likely be water, though in that case it would be more 'efficient' to pick the Son of Niefel as he starts with 2W, and has more item slots. An offensive magics strategy using Fire is another option, but I might consider yet a different pretender for that. In short, I think Astral is the best for a Wyrm.

If you bring a Seithkona with your Wyrm, you can cast Luck from the start anyway and easily reach Body ethereal.

But the seithkona cannot cast BE on the wyrm, which is the whole point.

You would be lacking Astral Shield (which is nice) and Astral Weapon.

I have seen the wyrm paralyze over a third of an enemy force by having them hit the shield. Which then leaves all those foes just sitting there helpless for other units in my army to dispose of, if they don't get eaten by the wyrm first. Astral Weapon allows the wyrm to punch right through heavily armored foes (like Ulms), to kill them outright. If they have high natural protection, the AW won't help, but that's where the death poison comes in.

OTOH, you would gain Mirror Image and Mist Form, have Cloud Trapezee for strategic movement, not having to worry about Mind Duel and add a magic field to your nation (which would then only be lacking earth and fire magic). What do you think?

IMO, MI isn't even remotely as useful as BE. MF is like a weak BE, but as the spell says, a good solid hit will make the MF go poof. Again, this makes MF decidedly inferior to BE. CT is more expensive than Teleport in gems, and cannot be cast underwater. Mind Duel risk is the only significant point, IMO, that you raise, and had I taken Astral-5 instead of 4, it wouldn't be a major issue. With regards to having a path that my mages lack, that's why I feel that water would be the logical choice as an alternative. With astral, I can always, later on, cast Contact Harbinger and summon an Air-2 mage that way, which can then be empowered to 3 and then up to 5 with items. It's spells that you didn't mention, such as Mass Flight, that have some appeal. But most of the handy air spells can be cast just as usefully (if not more so) by a supporting mage than by the SC.

The point, once again, of this strategy is what spells the SC needs to cast to make itself a very tough and effective combatant. So you really have to look at the spells that have an AoE of Caster. Other spells can be relegated to supporting mages.

Thanks for posing the question(s)!

[Arryn]

Turn #8, Late Fall of year 1
The noose descends upon the head of the snake.
Travellers from afar bring word that an Anathemant Warlock of the demon nation of Abyssia has been appointed as the false prophet of Theag. I am puzzled that even the most foolish of mortals would listen to, much less heed, the lies of those that consort with creatures from the nether realms.

My avatar Jorgun, prophet Grymis, and 13 Jotuns engage the defenders of Pythium as my force approaches their citadel. Facing me are 2 centurions, 6 velites, 50 fanatics, and 25 slingers. Missile fire from their own rear kill as many of the fanatics as fall before my advancing giants. The velites put up a valiant rearguard action, engaging my giants in the face of certain death, to permit the remaining fanatics to retreat from the battle. All told my giants, once again with no losses to themselves, kill two-thirds of the fanatics, two-fifths of the slingers, and all the brave velites. Seventeen fanatics, fifteen slingers, and the two centurions manage to flee into the Pythium citadel before the gates slam shut.

Jorgun nearly doubles his kills, to a total of 15, and obtains 8 more trophies. An easy victory, and the 72 gold income of Pythium's farmlands are a very welcome addition to my coffers. My force settles in for a seige that I expect to Last into the next year, as the citadel's walls are formidable, twice as strong as those of my own castle, with ample supplies for the survivors huddled within.

Unrest remains stable in the Black Alps, and drops in Gwyrth and the Iron Range as I have expected. The end of fighting in these lands has calmed the populace, and their lives are slowly returning to the predictability mortals seem to prefer.

The Seithkona Roskva is the fifth to join my coven of magical researchers, who have presented me this month with the welcome news of having achieved mastery of the third rank of 'Alteration', and are near to completing the first rank of 'Enchantment' magics. Jorgun adds the defensive spell Body Ethereal to the magics he prepares before engaging in combat, while the Seithkonas do likewise. With knowledge of the spell Protection, with its greater breadth, I instruct that one of their number be sure to cast this first in any conflict, so that the others in the coven need no longer cast Barkskin.

My realm has:

• __4 Provinces (+Pythium under seige)
• 262 Treasury.
• 346 Income. (+77)
• 101 Upkeep. (+10)
• 130 Resources in the capital. (+1)

Gem income is:

• +3 Astral (24)
• +1 Death (08)
• +2 Nature (11)

In light of my success in driving back the forces of Pythium, I feel that the Fates will be receptive to my request for one of Lit's sister Norna to join me, so I command that the appropriate gifts and celebration be prepared. I also command that one more Jotun Spearman be readied for the siege of the Pythium citadel. These preparations drain the treasury of 250 coins, and I defer bolstering provincial defenses, preferring to wait and see how Pythium reacts to his successive defeats.

I decide to leave the scout Bdvar in place for yet a fifth consecutive month. [I just forgot about him I guess.] Bove and his eight Jotun spearmen continue to march from the Alps to join my beseiging force at Pythium. I decide to have the Seithkona Urd join my army, so I send word for her to commence travelling to the Alps, by way of Gwyrth, and she is to bring along the five Jotun spearmen which had been acting as bodyguards to the coven members. I expect that the Pythium pretender will be more concerned about my army camped at his gates than in the residents of my castle.

to be continued ...

[ February 11, 2004, 14:24: Message edited by: Arryn ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Arryn:
But the seithkona cannot cast BE on the wyrm, which is the whole point.

BE is range 1, so mages cast it on themselves, then the units in adjacent squares.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arryn:
But the seithkona cannot cast BE on the wyrm, which is the whole point.

BE is range 1, so mages cast it on themselves, then the units in adjacent squares.

---

Good point. Thanks. I keep making the same mistake of interpreting "1" as "0" somehow.

Still, isn't having a caster within range 1 of the SC just begging to lose that caster? In one of the battles I observed, had I placed one of my mages that close to my SC (regardless of the SC's position on the field), she would never have been able to move elsewhere to safety in time after casting the spell. I'm not all that willing to sacrifice 90gp casters. The SC does tend to be a magnet for the enemy ... which is fine with me as the Wyrm is rather hard to kill by mere mundane troops.

One tactic I use often is to leave the SC up front, alone, and the rest of the army behind a ways. The SC draws the enemy to it, taking the brunt of any initial charges and such, just in time for the rest of my army to arrive and dispatch the often-paralyzed attackers the wyrm may leave behind. This saves the lives of many of my giants that would otherwise have to suck up that initial charge or missile volley. I just have to be careful not to do this in a province with strong enough enemy dominion to weaken my pretender's HP (and regen) to the point that it might get killed before supporting troops arrive to distract some of the attackers.

[ February 10, 2004, 13:19: Message edited by: Arryn ]

[licker]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arryn:
But the seithkona cannot cast BE on the wyrm, which is the whole point.

BE is range 1, so mages cast it on themselves, then the units in adjacent squares.

---

Good point. Thanks. I keep making the same mistake of interpeting "1" as "0" somehow.

Still, isn't having a caster within range 1 of the SC just begging to lose that caster? In one of the battles I observed, had I placed one of my mages that close to my SC (regardless of the SC's position on the field), she would never have been able to move back to safety in time after casting the spell. I'm not all that willing to sacrifice 90gp casters. The SC does tend to be a magnet for the enemy ... which is fine with me as the Wyrm is rather hard to kill by mere mundane troops.

One tactic I use often is to leave the SC up front, alone, and the rest of the army behind a ways. The SC draws the enemy to it, taking the brunt of any initial charges and such, just in time for the rest of my army to arrive and dispatch the often-paralyzed attackers the wyrm may leave behind. This saves the lives of many of my giants that would otherwise have to suck up that initial charge or missile volley. I just have to be careful not to do this in a province with strong enough enemy dominion to weaken my pretender's HP (and regen) to the point that it might get killed before supporting troops arrive to distract some of the attackers.

---

Well you can script the caster to retreat after they put up whatever spells you want. Of course this does lead them to not be with your army if you win. I thought they were looking into fixing that (or changing it for those who don't consider it to be a fix). That is that the winning sides retreaties actually stay with the army if it's victorious...

[Arryn]

Originally posted by licker:
Well you can script the caster to retreat after they put up whatever spells you want.

In the example I cited, my mage would have been killed before being able to retreat. The area around the SC was swarmed. And the SC was neither in the front, nor the very back, in that battle. My army just wasn't big enough to stop the attackers at the front from rushing past. Enemy flyers make it even more imperative that I keep my casters away from my SC. The SC, being a pretender, and size 6, is a priority target no matter where it is.

I admit that it doesn't often happen that quickly, or that thoroughly, that a mage cannot retreat to safety, but the fact that it can happen is enough for me to plan on using different tactics.

BTW, I think the complexion and balance of the game will be dramatically changed if IW allows for the tactic of hit-n-run mages, or as Norfleet might phrase it, drive-by castings.

[ February 09, 2004, 21:23: Message edited by: Arryn ]