Clams overpowered?

[Arryn]

Originally posted by peasant:
I agree, overpowered.

I agree that price should include 5 astral - that way, they are still useful (as a renewable source of pearls for combat mages in the field) but wouldn't make as powerfull as a banking strategy.

Ditto your assessment. If making clams didn't confer such a clear-cut advantage you wouldn't see most experienced players employing them as a core part of their growth strategies. It's a blatant clue that something is unbalanced when many people employ the same single tactic, which is a clear sign of exploitation and abuse.

[PvK]

I still like my idea to have clams draw on a limited worldwide supply of pearls - say one per sea province on the map. Once there are more clams than pearls, a random selection equal to the surplus of clams, don't produce pearls that turn.

PvK

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by PvK:
I still like my idea to have clams draw on a limited worldwide supply of pearls - say one per sea province on the map. Once there are more clams than pearls, a random selection equal to the surplus of clams, don't produce pearls that turn.

PvK

Let's not make clams useless, please.

[LintMan]

Originally posted by PvK:
I still like my idea to have clams draw on a limited worldwide supply of pearls - say one per sea province on the map. Once there are more clams than pearls, a random selection equal to the surplus of clams, don't produce pearls that turn.

The problem I see with this is that the hoarder would still get the lion's share of the pearls (since they'd have forged them sooner, before the limit kicked in, and would have a much greater percentage of the total), while "casual clammers" who only forge a few would get beat. So the incentive to hoard them would be diminished but still remain, while at the same time, it would be borked for the occasional clam forger. That would then lead to a "either make a whole ton of them, or don't bother to make any" type philosophy.

If there was going to be a limit on clams, I think it would be better to be per-player rather than overall. This would prevent any player from hoarding them (which is the goal, I think), while still allowing them to be used normally by the non-hoarders.

I think that having a reasonable limit on the number of clams (what that number is, is debatable, of course), combined with some improvements to the water path to add some decent rituals as an attractive alternative use of water gems, would solve the problem.

[Scott Hebert]

Another interesting thing about Clams.

Can you name a Water nation that can't use Astral Pearls well?

Atlantis - Water, Astral
R'lyeh - Water, Astral
Base Pythium - Astral, Water
Mictlan - lots of stuff, Water, Astral
etc.

About the only one is Caelum, and it doesn't preclude a Pretender that can make Clams.

Part of the problem with Clams is that the output (pearls) are directly useful to those nations best able to make them. It's not just an indirect benefit.

As a counterexample, if the Clams made, say, Air gems, a lot fewer nations would profit from them. (Caelum would turn into a big winner, though.) Not suggesting a change to the product, just a look at the other influences.

To me, Astral Magic is overpowered, and Water Magic is underpowered, so it's not hard to see in the least why an item that converts Water Gems to Astral Pearls is considered overpowered.

Bayushi Tasogare

[PvK]

Originally posted by Argitoth:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
I still like my idea to have clams draw on a limited worldwide supply of pearls - say one per sea province on the map. Once there are more clams than pearls, a random selection equal to the surplus of clams, don't produce pearls that turn.

PvK

Let's not make clams useless, please.

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It wouldn't make them useless. They'd be exactly as useful as before... until people started over-producing them, at which point a natural limit to usefulness would be reached. Rather like real natural resources, except without an actual depletion going on.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by LintMan:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
I still like my idea to have clams draw on a limited worldwide supply of pearls - say one per sea province on the map. Once there are more clams than pearls, a random selection equal to the surplus of clams, don't produce pearls that turn.

The problem I see with this is that the hoarder would still get the lion's share of the pearls (since they'd have forged them sooner, before the limit kicked in, and would have a much greater percentage of the total), while "casual clammers" who only forge a few would get beat. So the incentive to hoard them would be diminished but still remain, while at the same time, it would be borked for the occasional clam forger. That would then lead to a "either make a whole ton of them, or don't bother to make any" type philosophy.
...

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A clam hoarder could get the lion's share of the pearls available, but that amount would be a fixed amount, and they would have to invest a lot more to get that edge - there would be a natural limit, meaning it would not be cost effective to make tons of clams - only to make a limited number of them, and other players have the ability to limit the rewards of the hoarder's clam investment, by making their own clams. Excessive clam hoarding would not be worth the investment. If everyone realizes that, and so makes only a few clams, stopping when they start to not always produce pearls, then casual clam makers get the same rewards as they do now. Only hoarding strategies get messed up. Seems like an interesting and self-balancing mechanic, to me.

PvK