TDM-Modpack politics in really big game

In my really big game it is now turn 10. I have met the Rage and they immediately turned Murderous declaring war. Is that normal ?

The Cue Cappa accepted my gift of resources 4000/3000/3000 with trade treaty then cancelled two turns later. Maybe it is because I planted a colony on a sphere world in one of their home systems. I am not claiming systems as I colonize so the attack location thing should not be the problem, or is it ?

At turn 10 I have a trade treaty with Krill, Narn, Sergetti, Toron, UkraTal, and Xichung. Contact but no treaty with Cue Cappa (see above), Drushocka, and Sallegra and of course the Rage. So @10 I have met half the races, about what I expected.

I am #14 of 20 with 18 systems 28 colonies. Next up is Sergetti at 5/18 unless one of the no treaties has more.... The Xichung have 48 ships ! I am colonizing only sphere worlds and each colony gets a space yard station to build mines at 3/turn (six when I get yard III). I will move my population using light cruisers which also have three mine launch bays in case they meet an enemy. I can build one every two turns and not significantly reduce my 4000m populaion per homeworld, then scrap at the destination rather than returning home. This way I populate worlds and stop wasting my high reprodution rate....

[Marty Ward]

There seem to be some races that are pissed off as soon as they meet you. I think the Rage is one of them. I have never had a game where they were friendly, cool is the best I've seen I think.

[Alpha Kodiak]

So, you met the "You breathe? We will fix that NOW." Rage Collective. About the only time they will be friendly is if they are already in at least one, and more likely, two wars. The Rage were created as a weapon system by some long dead race. They seem to have gotten a little out of control, and are now trying to rid the galaxy of all intelligent (or not so intelligent) life.

[Phoenix-D]

You should check, because think you automaticlly claim systems that you colonize. Also, your nearby colonies are considered attack locations.. even if you are an ally at the time. (*cough* backstab *cough*)

Phoenix-D

[capnq]

quote:

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You should check, because think you automaticlly claim systems that you colonize.

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There's a toggle for this in Empire Options; the default setting is claim them.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

[jc173]

quote:

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Originally posted by LCC:
In my really big game it is now turn 10. I have met the Rage and they immediately turned Murderous declaring war. Is that normal ?

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Yes, unless you are a much more powerful empire when you meet them, the Rage pretty much automatically declare war. They're a pretty psychotic race. Kind of like Skynet leading the Berserkers.

quote:

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The Cue Cappa accepted my gift of resources 4000/3000/3000 with trade treaty then cancelled two turns later. Maybe it is because I planted a colony on a sphere world in one of their home systems. I am not claiming systems as I colonize so the attack location thing should not be the problem, or is it ?

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Not sure, I think the AI will that a threat anyhow. At least I've seen them attack my colonies like that previously, even though the system itself wasn't contested on the border display map.

[Atraikius]

Your problem with the CueCappa may have been from the Last two line of the politics file, where it tells the AI the limits for it to continue trading with you. I f they also had their anger towards you increase, it may have been boosted by the ;get made over allied colonizable planets' setting.

In my really big game it is turn 20. Politics are as follows. Initial score/rank in parenthesis, then current score/rank, then current number tech levels, then current systems/planets, then units/ships/bases, then wars-w/no treaty-n/treaty-t, then my relation with the race. I am at war with Drushocka, Rage, and Sallegra by their choice. I still have no treaty with the Cue Cappa, but they never declared war - cautious I guess. I am behind schedule on race contact, slowed by the war effort. My ships are light cruisers except three colony. The LC are population transports with three mine launch bays (330 pop/ 6 small mines) except a half dozen retrofitted to missile (!) ships to defend the Central system. I do not have shield tech so cannot afford beam fights. My trade treaties give me very good dividends, well worth the effort. With my mines being swept at four planets, I have switched production to small mines with only one 300 kt warhead, which is 2/3 the cost in minerals and 1/2 the cost in radioactives of a two warhead mine. About half my planets have a base space yard in orbit on repeat build of mines. I am at 500k minerals throwing away 40k per turn due to lack of storage for a total loss since start of game of about 1000k minerals, which breaks my heart but the AI do no better. I am half full on organics at +20k. I am quarter full on radioactives at +5k. I just built my first intelligence center at a sphereworld. It took me this long to plant, build a yard, and build a base yard plus some mines and misc facilities. I have planted only Rock/None and am defending Central and the ten nexus sphere worlds. I have moved over 1000k population to all of them. Except for Ike the original home planets are still nearly full on population, cranking out a transport LC every two turns. The Ike nexus homeworlds have just now switched to building base space yards every 3-4 turns, with space yard 3. The next step is to have the nexus worlds colonize their 3-6 secondary sphereworlds. Once those are secure I can start thinking about the 900 large planets... I have planted then abandoned eight ruins worlds searching for useful tech starting two turns ago. The Sergetti have not gone Mega Evil Empire since I set the level to 5000k rather than 500k. It seemed ridiculous to me to see anybody going MEE before turn 70.

Sergetti ------- (213.6/16) 513.9/01 - 58 - 05/25 - 0082/57/11 - 2w/1n/1t - TR Warm
Clays(me) --- (213.0/18) 462.8/02 - 58 - 20/30 - 1426/40/18 - 3w/1n/9t - myself
Krill ------------ (220.1/11) 450.9/03 - 41 - 03/19 - 0069/52/00 - 1w/1n/5t - TR Cool
Pyrochette -- (287.6/01) 444.5/04 - 62 - 05/20 - 0406/28/05 - 1w/0n/1t - not met
Rage ---------- (261.7/03) 431.3/05 - 53 - 09/24 - 0394/41/03 - 2w/2n/4t - War Displeased
Cryslonite --- (218.9/12) 420.9/06 - 49 - 06/20 - 0246/41/02 - 1w/1n/1t - not met
Sallegra ------ (220.2/10) 420.7/07 - 51 - 05/28 - 0177/29/06 - 1w/0n/7t - War Murderous
Amonkrie ---- (235.5/05) 397.7/08 - 50 - 03/42 - 0337/17/00 - no contacts with any - colonizing
Drushocka -- (213.9/15) 381.4/09 - 46 - 06/25 - 0098/28/03 - 1w/0n/4t - War Angry
Abbidon ------ (217.2/13) 380.4/10 - 38 - 04/33 - 0168/29/01 - 0w/1n/0t - not met
Toron ---------- (278.8/02) 369.5/11 - 62 - 06/18 - 0901/18/02 - 1w/0n/5t - MA Brotherly
Eee ------------ (223.9/08) 365.2/12 - 35 - 08/33 - 0248/15/00 - no contacts with any - colonizing
Narn ----------- (257.6/04) 359.1/13 - 49 - 10/14 - 0296/25/02 - 1w/3n/3t - TR Amiable
Toltayan ----- (213.1/07) 351.7/14 - 40 - 05/18 - 0243/30/00 - 2w/1n/0t - meet on his turn
Cue Cappa -- (211.7/20) 346.3/15 - 42 - 06/19 - 0106/23/03 - 0w/5n/5t - none Warm
Xi Chung ----- (212.1/19) 345.9/16 - 39 - 06/15 - 1168/47/04 - 2w/0n/3t - T Murderous
Piundan ------ (226.8/07) 324.0/17 - 49 - 06/17 - 0992/28/01 - 1w/0n/1t - MA Warm
Phong --------- (228.3/06) 296.1/18 - 41 - 04/17 - 0063/21/00 - 1w/0n/1t - TR Receptive
Colonials ---- (220.5/09) 277.7/19 - 50 - 05/13 - 1424/17/01 - 1w/1n/2t - MA Receptive
Ukra Tal ----- (216.0/14) 201.3/20 - 37 - 04/12 - 0058/15/00 - 2w/1n/4t - TR Brotherly

Notice that those races not at war are actively colonizing and will eventually surpass all others (except hopefully me). Most of the Sergetti and Krill score is in those ships, so they are not the threat they seem. Perhaps the AI would be better off doing at least a modest amount of colonization even during war time. The Colonials, Piundan, Toron, and Xichung in particular would have been better off colonizing than building that huge stockpile of fighters. With three wars to fight losing mines (launched mines not in my score) and population to shift I have not done any colonizing myself in a long time, but that will soon change....

The Ukra Tal are caught between the Rage and the Krill. They have lost three homeworlds. I guess they are gonna die....

I am about to lose my treaty with Xichung. I am stalling off his break treaty by giving a resources gift (which he refuses) to keep him from initiating a message on his own. Definitely a stop gap measure till my colony gets defended since he just keeps getting more angry.... I expect a problem with the Krill soon. I will not make that mistake again.

In my really big game it is turn 30. I am posting a Winzip zip file with the start and turn 30 in Scenario/Mod Archive Space Empires IV Maps and Scenarios. Politics are as follows - initial score/ rank in parenthesis, then turn 20 score/ rank in parenthesis, then current score/ rank, then current number tech levels, then current systems/ planets/ colony ships with turn 20 systems/ planets in parenthesis, then units/ ships/ bases, then wars-w/ no treaty-n/ treaty-t, then my relation with the race. I am at war with the Cue Cappa, Drushocka, Rage, and Sallegra by their choice. Once a race goes to war with me my policy is to never offer peace. I am almost done with race contact, with two tanker ships on the way to home systems of Eee and Abbidon. I just made contact with the Amonkrie Last turn (refused gift treaty), and the Krill just broke treaty. The Xichung are likely to break any time now. My ships are a mix of light cruisers and cruisers except three colony. My trade treaties give me very good dividends, well worth the effort. See production and trade analysis below. I am producing small mines with only one 300 kt warhead, which is 2/3 the cost in minerals and 1/2 the cost in radioactives of a two warhead mine, due to active minesweeping. I am mining the ten warp points of Central with 100 mines each on both sides. I also am mining warp points near the borders of my original home systems. Most of my planets have two base space yards in orbit on repeat build of mines (some have more - see Ike) for a total of 480 mines per turn. I have started doing storage facilities for minerals and organics. I am nearly full on minerals at +6k. I am full up 500k on organics at +36k. I am half full on radioactives at +6k. I stopped building intelligence centers because nobody else was doing it yet. I have not built any research centers and do not plan to until I must, because my trade treaties are letting me research faster than anybody else already. Why improve the trade partners research ?

Notice the Abbidon, Eee and Piundan have improved seven ranks due to industrial development, while the Krill have fallen six. Stalled races with less than about 50 points gain are the Krill, Sallegra, Cue Cappa (low colonization, war with me) and the Toron, Narn (low colonization, building fighters).

Clays(me) ----- (213.0/18) (462.8/02) 773.5/01 - 80 - 22/35/03 (20/30) - 3957/75/48 - 4w/2n/11t - myself
Sergetti -------- (213.6/16) (513.9/01) 753.0/02 - 68 - 05/34/01 (05/25) - 0204/88/15 - 2w/3n/03t - TR Warm
Abbidon ------- (217.2/13) (380.4/10) 614.9/03 - 46 - 04/39/02 (04/33) - 0235/66/06 - 0w/1n/00t - not met
Rage ----------- (261.7/03) (431.3/05) 588.2/04 - 61 - 09/31/01 (09/24) - 0922/63/04 - 2w/1n/06t - War Mod
Eee ------------- (223.9/08) (365.2/12) 578.2/05 - 44 - 11/48/03 (08/33) - 0433/30/00 - 0w/1n/02t - not met
Pyrochette --- (287.6/01) (444.5/04) 554.1/06 - 66 - 05/29/00 (05/20) - 0762/31/06 - 1w/1n/04t - TR Receptive
Cryslonite ---- (218.9/12) (420.9/06) 547.8/07 - 62 - 06/26/03 (06/20) - 0275/58/02 - 1w/0n/04t - TA Warm
Amonkrie ----- (235.5/05) (397.7/08) 520.7/08 - 62 - 08/68/12 (03/42) - 0594/28/00 - 0w/2n/00t - none Mod
Krill ------------- (220.1/11) (450.9/03) 494.6/09 - 50 - 03/20/01 (03/19) - 0077/60/00 - 2w/2n/08t - none Mur
Piundan ------- (226.8/07) (324.0/17) 493.1/10 - 60 - 06/22/02 (06/17) - 1196/57/02 - 1w/2n/04t - MA Receptive
Drushocka --- (213.9/15) (381.4/09) 483.7/11 - 54 - 06/28/01 (06/25) - 0172/40/03 - 1w/0n/07t - War Displeased
Sallegra ------- (220.2/10) (420.7/07) 468.0/12 - 57 - 05/32/00 (05/28) - 0230/34/06 - 1w/1n/07t - War Mur
Toltayan ------ (213.1/07) (351.7/14) 446.1/13 - 45 - 05/20/01 (05/18) - 0248/49/00 - 2w/0n/03t - TR Botherly
Xi Chung ----- (212.1/19) (345.9/16) 420.3/14 - 51 - 06/17/02 (06/15) - 2148/56/06 - 2w/4n/03t - TR Murderous
Toron ---------- (278.8/02) (369.5/11) 412.1/15 - 68 - 06/21/00 (06/18) - 1074/17/02 - 1w/2n/10t - P Brotherly
Narn ----------- (257.6/04) (359.1/13) 410.5/16 - 57 - 11/18/00 (10/14) - 1128/33/02 - 2w/1n/05t - TR Brotherly
Cue Cappa -- (211.7/20) (346.3/15) 391.7/17 - 50 - 06/21/00 (06/19) - 0165/27/02 - 1w/0n/09t - War Angry
Phong --------- (228.3/06) (296.1/18) 362.4/18 - 46 - 04/19/00 (04/17) - 0074/29/00 - 1w/0n/06t - MA Brotherly
Colonials ----- (220.5/09) (277.7/19) 336.7/19 - 71 - 06/17/00 (05/13) - 1662/23/01 - 2w/0n/03t - P Brotherly
Ukra Tal ------ (216.0/14) (201.3/20) 278.9/20 - 45 - 05/14/01 (04/12) - 0058/26/00 - 2w/3n/07t - TR Brotherly

Except for the Sergetti, Eee, Pyrochette, and Amonkrie colonizing is less than one per two turns. I changed my own plans because I want at least 100 mines delivered at plant to each new colony so that it is secure. I could not do that at the rate planned. I currently have scheduled colonization of 9 sphere worlds, mostly in the territory of allies who plant rock colonies. I am very surprised by the failure of the AI to colonize them, particularly in home systems. The 50 sphere worlds were created as a magnet to suck population off of homeworlds so that by capturing a single planet I could get population to colonize other atmospheres. As of turn 30 the planting status is one each by six (Drushocka, Toron, Pyrochette, Rage, Piundan, Narn), but none by seven (Krill, Sallegra, Toltayan, Xi Chung, Cue Cappa, Phong, Colonials). The fighter races continue to stockpile them, even though many worlds are full up and getting no storage available. I also noticed that some have space yard ships attempting to move which are producing a ship. Also some are attempting to load cargo into full ships. The Pyrochette recently have been repeatedly trying to do illegal refits. Though mine sweepers are active the AI continues to demolish its ships and fleets against known mine fields. I am sticking to mines and missile ships heavily armed with PD since the Rage have PPB V and the Krill have large fleets of torpedo launchers. I tried out the massive shield depleter but it is one shot and usually misses. It is not worth giving up two missile slots. I will be building medium weapon platforms with PSG V, PD V, missiles V, and a PPB V heavy mount when I get the tech. I can build one per three turns on a base yard, or I can build 30 mines. Until the AI sweeps a field of 100 I will stick to mines plus one missile ship to kill the mine sweepers...

You might be interested in a production and trade analysis, ranked by total minerals. First is the current rank by total score, then number trade partners, then values (in thousands). Order is minerals, organics, radioactives with each giving production/ trade/ total/ current balance rate/ stockpile. Last is research giving production and total with trade included. Notice that a half dozen are building lots of research centers, which is smart. The Abbidon and Sergetti are refining while the Eee are refining like crazy for some reason (racial bonus aside). I am the only one not running a good surplus in minerals, because I built bases. My radioactives are going into mines, while the Rage are eating theirs building ships with PPB. The Xichung are running low on organics for their weapons. The AI should have built bases or colonies to use its surplus, in particular notice the Toron and Pyrochette building maintenance free fighters. Neither has any carriers so I suppose they are for defending the building planet. The Ukra Tal are doing well considering they lost three home worlds. They may survive now that the Krill hate me more.

Clays(me) --- 01 - 11 - 122/246/368/+005/649 - 14/27/42/+34/500 - 014/41/056/+05/227 - 053/172
Toron ---------- 15 - 10 - 178/150/327/+255/500 - 20/15/35/+32/500 - 027/20/047/+39/530 - 101/124
Cue Cappa -- 17 - 09 - 122/155/278/+219/500 - 15/18/33/+31/500 - 018/23/042/+36/520 - 087/111
Sallegra ------ 12 - 07 - 145/131/276/+190/620 - 31/13/45/+44/540 - 021/18/039/+25/268 - 101/134
Pyrochette -- 06 - 04 - 241/030/271/+176/500 - 16/03/19/+18/451 - 032/04/036/+20/530 - 090/090
Krill ------------ 09 - 08 - 142/122/265/+138/540 - 05/13/28/+26/500 - 019/16/036/+20/504 - 077/108
Sergetti ------ 02 - 03 - 222/036/259/+119/740 - 17/04/21/+19/500 - 055/04/060/+40/590 - 083/090
Amonkrie --- 08 - 00 - 248/000/248/+185/820 - 24/00/24/+20/505 - 031/00/031/+25/456 - 109/109
Drushocka - 11 - 07 - 173/071/245/+153/620 - 16/10/26/+24/500 - 020/11/032/+24/498 - 097/121
Rage --------- 04 - 06 - 187/050/237/+105/768 - 12/06/19/+16/460 - 026/07/031/+05/290 - 095/095
Piundan ----- 10 - 04 - 190/034/224/+121/660 - 17/04/21/+18/500 - 019/05/024/+11/577 - 056/063
Narn ---------- 16 - 05 - 156/066/223/+144/500 - 15/07/22/+21/500 - 025/08/034/+29/500 - 081/099
Ukra Tal ----- 20 - 07 - 088/126/219/+178/500 - 16/15/32/+26/359 - 011/17/028/+25/500 - 051/106
Eee ----------- 05 - 02 - 184/006/190/+108/720 - 22/01/22/+79/487 - 100/01/101/+91/620 - 107/107
Cryslonite -- 07 - 04 - 140/049/189/+057/520 - 24/06/31/+26/520 - 025/06/031/+13/429 - 093/101
Phong --------18 - 06 - 137/052/189/+123/520 - 14/06/21/+20/500 - 017/07/025/+18/383 - 073/082
Colonials --- 19 - 03 - 141/045/186/+126/540 - 15/07/22/+21/500 - 022/07/030/+12/500 - 055/077
Xi Chung --- 14 - 03 - 102/063/165/+069/500 - 19/09/28/+10/124 - 016/09/025/+18/500 - 052/078
Toltayan --- 13 - 03 - 125/026/151/+049/500 - 16/02/19/+17/500 - 031/03/034/+19/520 - 071/074
Abbidon --- 03 - 00 - 146/000/146/+031/680 - 30/00/30/+27/540 - 045/00/045/+34/560 - 106/106


[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 25 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 25 May 2001).]

The size of this file is 14kb but zipped only 6kb. I made it using AOL which looked flakey in wordpad so I will not make that mistake again....

The file contains questions about the AI politics and a proposed strategy for colonizing all 7000 planets, with end game targeted about turn 250. Expected score exceeds 25 million and racial experience increases by over 700000.

If you were one of the TDM-Modpack racial designers, or have experience with the AI politics files, then I would appreciate some answers either in the forum or by email to LCClay1@aol.com