Paper, Rock, Marignon!

[Mardagg]

Wasnt the topic about Marignon...oh well

I second Kel`s opinion,or feeling,that large games more often than not tend to play quite similar,because of an huge alliance against Ermor.

I,personally,see 2 problems with the Ermor themes,that I dont like,even though I dont consider Ermor overpowered,especially not in the end game or at the very beginning,when the forces of darkness are small.

problem 1:

Ermor (AE and SG) is the nation that benefits the most from players switching to AI or dont giving orders anymore.
Large games tend to Last longer on average and cover normally all 17 nations.
This leads,naturally,to quite a few players,who cant or dont want to invest time anymore in the game.
Now,as the AI cant deal with Ermor,Ermor will be happy,if he is neighbouring such a country.

But Ermor does also benefit more from players doing nothing and not going to AI.
Ermor normally has the troops to conquer all those unprepared provinces much faster than other nations.Ermor also dont has to worry about supply,which can be important if the inactive nation is quite big,especially important if this is at the beginning of a game,where most nations dont have the environment to produce supply items,castles or summon non-eating troops.

Solution:
Make at least the AI stronger against Ermor.
As this wont be likely,this problem will most likely not be solved this way.


Problem 2:
Big games very often,too often,lead to an "all gang on Ermor situation".
This can also be sometimes frustrating for the Ermor-player -)
Just to clarify:
I have played several MP-games now,mostly large games.
When it goes to the middle game and later to the end game,I have yet to see a vanished Ermor Empire.
Whereas I have seen nearly all other nations,in one game or another,already vanished.
Especially in large games,where everyone has to plan for longterms,everyone knows,that an early attack on Ermor will severely hamper his own expansion(maybe getting gems,but no income;producing more priests/researching special spells/producing special troops which may become quite useless afterwards)compared to others who wage war against "Normal "nations or only indies.
Because of this and the fact,that the map is bigger than in smaller games(thus it is more diffult to attack Ermor earlier with more nations),its juts plain clear that Ermor will survive until everyone fears him and gangs on him.Normally this will be the case,when certain very terrific globals are put up with huge amout of extra gems and/or the Army/gem/castle graphs
grow bigger and bigger,until all nations are scared just because of the numbers.

Solutions:

-Play smaller maps,where Ermor more often gets cleaned from the map early
-Ally with Ermor.
(possible,but for some nations very difficult).
-Dont allow Ermor at all or only their main theme.
-Attack Ermor alone as soon as you see it.
(Well,depending on the situation and your nation/tactic this could prove to be suicide more often than not,especially after Ermor has established a strong position,which will be in large games with lots independents most likely the case).

Best solution:
-make their main theme stronger,so that at least sometimes one will encounter this.
I have yet to see a MP game,where Ermor uses the main theme and that makes me sad
This solution also would solve the first problem,i have with Ermor

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Mardagg:
Ermor normally has the troops to conquer all those unprepared provinces much faster than other nations.

Ermor actually has a troop production problem in the early game, which severely limits their early expansion.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Mardagg:
Solutions:

-Play smaller maps,where Ermor more often gets cleaned from the map early
-Ally with Ermor.
(possible,but for some nations very difficult).
-Dont allow Ermor at all or only their main theme.
-Attack Ermor alone as soon as you see it.
(Well,depending on the situation and your nation/tactic this could prove to be suicide more often than not,especially after Ermor has established a strong position,which will be in large games with lots independents most likely the case).

These are all potentially valid approaches, but all still derive from one issue: That Ermor is somehow special and must be dealt with in some way immediately or the problem becomes untenable.

This is the response of hysteria. This is the fundamental reason why people like to ally against Ermor...and this is something you can play like a fiddle. Nearly any act or demand, no matter how outlandish, can be justified in the name of "attacking Ermor". People will willingly hand over tracts of territory that lance straight into the heartlands....just because you said you wanted to attack Ermor. It is entirely profitable to you to feed off of their fear, conning them out of their resources and valuables, all so you can "fight Ermor", whether you're actually going to do so or not: This can then all be diverted into your own personal agenda, which may or may not have anything to do with Ermor.

I say again: Ermor isn't the problem, player hysteria is the problem.

Best solution:
-make their main theme stronger,so that at least sometimes one will encounter this.
I have yet to see a MP game,where Ermor uses the main theme and that makes me sad
This solution also would solve the first problem,i have with Ermor

Broken Empire could definitely use some improvement, given that it really, well, kinda boring. It's just like all the other nations.

[Karacan]

The one reason why Ermor would still be playing in the middlegame is, for me, because I know I can likely handle them late game (unless I play Ulm, that is).

I find an Evocation-researched mass-communing Pythium, a Vastness-empowering, clam-hoarding R'lyeh or a devil-chainproducing Abysia much more scary in the middle to end-game than the thought of trudging an army of priests through inhospitable terrain. So naturally, those are prime targets I'd invest much more energy in to take out early. Even a Machaka with Flaming Arrows scares me more - but that's probably only because I lost my very first real DomII pbem against them because of underestimation on my part...

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Mardagg:
Wasnt the topic about Marignon...oh well

[...]Especially in large games,where everyone has to plan for longterms,everyone knows,that an early attack on Ermor will severely hamper his own expansion(maybe getting gems,but no income;producing more priests/researching special spells/producing special troops which may become quite useless afterwards)compared to others who wage war against "Normal "nations or only indies.

Putting things back on topic with Marignon ... I'd say almost half the nations in the game at least have themes where it doesn't hurt them at all to build up the priests to fight Ermor.

Marignon : Priests who can cast Holy Pyres, who are very solid mages, or who only have Fire-1 but can cast fanaticism.

Vanheim : Priests who are mini-SCs with the right equipment, who can also cast lightning and other air spells.

Pangaea : Dryads who are stealth preachers which also have nature magic and are the nations most cost efficient researchers.

Pythium, Serpent Cult : Mage priests. Base Pythium is even better with its _huge_ combined priest / mage commanders.

Atlantis : Very beefy fairly cheap combat Consorts, and beefy fanaticism casting Coral Queens.

Abyssia : Anathemants and Demonbreds - priests with good fire magic, flying, etc.

Arcos : Priestesses with nature magic, research, and healing.

Man : Last of the Tuatha theme has great commanders with priest abilities, Sidhe and Tuatha.

C'tis : No one ever got crucified for hiring a Lizard King (Priest 4).

Caelum : Stealthy flying priestly Seraphines.

Jotunheim : Huge Jotun Herses / Godes : Sacred Priestly mini-SCs. And Neifel Giants are obscene, with their theme.

R'lyeh : Priest 3s with Sorcery _and_ a random magic pick? What's to regret building?

Mictlan : Ouch! I've never played them - but good level (P3/P4) priests, most of whom have blood, and who additionally have lvl 2 Fire, Water, Astral, or Nature magic?

T'ien C'hi : Their mages are priests. All Ermor does is get the mages into the HoF.

That's an awful lot of nations / themes that don't lose anything in the long run for having to recruit priests to combat Ermor, imo.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Mictlan : Ouch! I've never played them - but good level (P3/P4) priests, most of whom have blood, and who additionally have lvl 2 Fire, Water, Astral, or Nature magic?

All but 1 of the national commanders of Mictlan are priests. They can throw absolutely massive numbers of holy 2 priests at Ermor.

[HotNifeThruButr]

Never played Mictlan. Seems kinda boring when you need blood summons to make an effective army.

Oh, right johan osterman, I forgot about the magic sites, which are basically the most important thing in the game because who needs a mundane army when you can have a summoned one?

<==== is an angry little man