Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!

[Arralen]

I'm looking into possibilities to strenghten S&A and make it a tad faster to start, and maybe reduce the MM a bit

So far, I have identified the following problems:

1) you start with Turmoil-1, but your better mages are rather expensive

2) your only standard commander is a chariot, leader/gold ratio is even worse, and they tend to get swarmed as soon as they start to trample the enemy. Even worse, one of T'Cs strength are archers and Fire Demons: Hits on any chariot moving through enemies ranks 100% guaranteed.

3) Heavenly Demons are a great asset, but cost too much mage-time, especially the Fire Demons which need either a Celestial Master or a very lucky Master Of The Way with fire-1 from random ..

4) Low-Level Astral Skills makes your mages Duel-fodder. Again you have to hope for a lucky draw on a Master Of Five Elements to get somewhat decent battle magic.

5) .. all those "lucky draws" mean you are spending time/turns and gold on buying mages, of which only 1/5 or so are really usable. And those are always the Last to show up.

6) While the starting gem income from the Sping and Autumn Gate is quite nice (1 fire, 2 water, 1 astral, 1 death), it's barely enough to let you summon 1 Demon/turn, and 15 spirits/4 turns (which need exactly 1 fight to get whacked). Thus you'll start conquering the world at turn 4 with 15 spirits and 2 river/fire demons each .. even when boosted with all the archers and medium inf you can afford it's just enough against Lvl-7 indies.


And there isn't much one can do about it:

• Turmoil-1 and Magic-1 is thematic in a very literal sense.
• Spell modding isn't there, so it's impossible to change the spells to summon 2 or more demons. No possible MM reduction and making them cheaper mage-time-wise.
• Gold needs boost income, but is very much fixed due to turmoil.

Only after some time it dawned to me, that simplest solution would be to add a site to the T'C starting prov which gives additional fire gems, which could either be used for a)speeding up the summoning, b) forging some items or c) conVersion to gold.

Looking through the list I found the Alchemists Guild, which seems to fit quite nice (1 earth, 1 fire). Even the alchemists IMHO is "in theme" for the feudal S&A, with magic, superstition and turmoil all across the land.

What do you think - would S&A be over-powered this way ?

[Boron]

don't change tien chi s&a they are already good .

i wouldn't use my nobles first frontline . they just get killed .

you need to gamble furthermore .
scales : turmoil 3 , sloth 3 , cold 3 , death 3 , magic 3 , luck 3 .
castle : watch tower
pretender : vq
this way you can e.g. take :
a3 , w 2 , e3 , d6 , b3
dominion 8

the vq either takes 1 prov / turn from turn 5 on or 1 prov / 2 turns + sitesearch the prov . with these picks she finds something like 50% .

if you just build the archers + give them a few water / fire demons they can take out the weaker indeps and at least conquer 1 province every 2 turns to from turn 5 on .

the luck is really a big gamble but you will quite often get the needed + gold just when you need it .
and if you get a +water or +fire gems event in the first 5 turns that are some additional fire / water demons .

you are somewhat dependent from luck but with turmoil 3 + luck 3 you get really many events and most are good .

if you need money you can even pillage a province since you only need money for your mages and almost not for national troops .
sure with these "horror" scales you have something about 1/3 of the income of one with order 3 productivity 3 growths 3 but in early game luck compensates .
lategame you have only to spend money on temples , castles + mages .

with magic 3 you research fast enough and should manage a top 5 position in research at least .

so what not to like ?
you even can bloodhunt with your random blood picks .
if you take water 3 on your vq she can summon :
ice devils and vampire lords .
if you don't get early some lucky random blood picks don't research blood but conjuration .
with d6 your vq needs only 1 empower item to summon tartarians and can summon the whole rest without empower .
you can lower d6 on your vq to d4 or 5 and instead take water 3 + earth 4 .

that way you can focus on blood heavyly and summon father illearth , vampire lords , the ice devils .

so construction , blood and/or conjuration are key areas .

[Boron]

luck is always a issue .

with tien chi you are most luck dependant .
but because of luck 3 you have at least some control .
there are many factors though for which no nation has control . i list some :

-starting location (center,edges...)
-neighbors
-indep province guards
-population of neighbors
-site search ( expect accashic )
-resources of neighbors
-landscape of neighbor provinces ( strat movement for nonflying )

if e.g. ermor starts in the center it is bad for ermor and his neighbors .
ermor will spread his dominion to a larger area than starting in an edgeposition and have more neighbors to deal with .
so more provinces will be corrupted but ermor will have to deal with more attackers early .

if you are dependant on blood randomness can be a pain and a bless .
scenario 1 :
abysia has 5 neighbors :
2 rich 20k+ farmlands
3 poor mountains 5-10k population

so 2 incomegenerating + 3 blood hunt provinces . ideal

scenario 2 :
1 rich farmland but guarded by knights + xbows or special monsters like gargoyles ...
1 5-10k rich mountain
3 0-4k swamps / forests .

1 hard to take province , only 1 adept for blood hunting and 3 rather worthless sites .
so very punishing starting conditions for abysia .

so the only difference is that you have to rely on luck even a bit more with tien chi but you have at least some control by taking luck 3 .
you are only 20-30% more luck dependant than everyone else .

if you look at the opposing scenario : you take or are forced to take misfortune 1-3 .
often you are lucky and get no too bad events in the first 10-15 turns where they harm you most .

but if you get blown up your temple / lab on turn 2 via misfortune event or the plague event which kills 50% population in your capitol you are really handicapped .

edit : lol caine you were faster with the same thoughts although i guess i started writing mine earlier lol

[ July 29, 2004, 13:08: Message edited by: Boron ]

[tinkthank]

I really don't think S&A need a boost, at least not as a priority. I quite enjoy them as is and would worry that they would get broken with increased power. I certainly think Tien BK is more in need of tweakage.

Originally posted by Boron:
you need to gamble furthermore .
scales : turmoil 3 , sloth 3 , cold 3 , death 3 , magic 3 , luck 3 .
castle : watch tower
pretender : vq

To each his own! I certainly could never ever play this build. How will you ever recruit anything? Are you going to go mass MotD and mass spirits? Why even bother playing S&A then? This is the perfect Ermor build, why don't you play Ermor? Ah, no VQ for Ermor any more. Tant pis!

[Thufir]

As a newbie, I'm speaking out of school here, but I just can't help myself

One question out of the box: what does 'MM' mean?

Originally posted by tinkthank:
I really don't think S&A need a boost, at least not as a priority. I quite enjoy them as is and would worry that they would get broken with increased power. I certainly think Tien BK is more in need of tweakage.

I can't argue against BK being more in need of tweakage, but I am still inclined to think that Tien S&A could be better than it is (without being unbalanced). From my rather limited experience, I would have to guess that few people are winning MP games with S&A - am I wrong?

It seems to me that the design intent of Tien AS is to be the best, of the mage oriented races/themes. I started my first SP game w/ TC after reading Zen's guide on the race (on Sunray's now locked site), and aesthetically it made it look like the kind setup I'd most enjoy in Dom 2.

If S&A were successfully implemented, I'd expect that in an MP game where no one gets screwed in the opening turns and the players are roughly equal, that S&A would be at a slight disadvantage in taking indies, and at a significant advantage in acquiring gem income and developing large numbers of useful mages.

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one who despises the concept that a theme is only going to be viable if you totally trash your scales and make an ungodly SC, especially a VQ.

I agree completely. Boron, with all due respect, I'd have to say that if your aproach is necessary to make the theme viable, then the theme is truly broken.

I don't have enough Dom2 game experience to pronounce a solution to adjusting S&A, but I would certainly like to see this theme be tweaked to the extent that it is a reasonable choice, oft taken and (reasonably) oft won with in MP play. Also, I'd say that a successful tweakage of S&A would mean that good play with this position was less SC dependent, and more mage dependent than others. I imagine that good play with S&A would probably require clever scripting with large numbers of CMs.

One ingredient of a well implemented S&A theme should include Heavenly Demons that are useful in MP play, at least into midgame. Arralen, based on your post, I think we should be asking for the following code level fixes in an upcoming patch (would 2.13 be optimistic? )

1) Increase accuracy of Demons of Heavenly Fire? I certainly have noticed their inaccuracy in SP play, and I'd think that would be crippling in MP play.

2) Increase the number of Demons of Heavenly River per summoning - perhaps with increased gem cost? It might be reasonable to do the same for DHF, as well.

Also, CMs must be viable in a well implemented S&A, but so far, I can't say that this is not the case. In SP play at least, the odds that my CMs get either a second air (giving them lightning bolt), or an earth pick (giving magma bolt) out of their impressive two randoms, are pretty good. Together with boosting items, it to me that CMs are viable as is, though I'd defer to those with more experience. As to their expense, it would seem to me reasonable that S&A must face a difficult choice of paying for their very valuable mages, and never having enough mundane troops (especially in the opening game). One thing I've been wondering - would it be reasonable for Mot5E to be recruitable in non-capital provinces?

I understand Arralen you are suggesting a fix via mod, but I'd guess I'd like to see S&A tweaked in a patch, in which case doing code level patches for the celestial demons becomes an option. I would have to guess that these are easy code changes to make, and if there were broad agreement, I'd imagine we could get these into a patch.

I would also say that adding to S&A's gem income goes in the wrong direction. S&A can start it's clam hoarding earlier and easier than any other nation. On top of that, with a combination of a CM plus Mot5E, it gets a broad search team very easily, so should find it easier to search for sites than other nations. All in all, I expect that S&A would tend to be more gem rich than any other nation, as is.

All that said, Arralen, if you produce a mod that strengthens S&A (my favorite theme ), I'll be more than happy to try it out!

[ July 29, 2004, 16:56: Message edited by: Thufir ]

[Truper]

[quote]Originally posted by Thufir:

One question out of the box: what does 'MM' mean?

Micromanagement.


[quote]I can't argue against BK being more in need of tweakage, but I am still inclined to think that Tien S&A could be better than it is (without being unbalanced). From my rather limited experience, I would have to guess that few people are winning MP games with S&A - am I wrong?

Winning SP games has a lot more to do with starting position and diplomacy than it does with strength of theme.

It seems to me that the design intent of Tien AS is to be the best, of the mage oriented races/themes. I started my first SP game w/ TC after reading Zen's guide on the race (on Sunray's now locked site), and aesthetically it made it look like the kind setup I'd most enjoy in Dom 2.

IMO, the design intent of S&A is to reflect in Dominions terms a particular period of Chinese history - and to be different in game feel from standard T'ien Ch'i

If S&A were successfully implemented, I'd expect that in an MP game where no one gets screwed in the opening turns and the players are roughly equal, that S&A would be at a slight disadvantage in taking indies, and at a significant advantage in acquiring gem income and developing large numbers of useful mages.

Then by your definition S&A is already succesfully implemented.

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one who despises the concept that a theme is only going to be viable if you totally trash your scales and make an ungodly SC, especially a VQ.

I agree completely. Boron, with all due respect, I'd have to say that if your aproach is necessary to make the theme viable, then the theme is truly broken.

Boron's approach takes what may be a slightly underpowered theme and makes it completely unplayable. Its income will be so awful that it won't be able to take advantage of the superb S&A Celestial Masters, effectively reducing the entire nation to a single unit - not a winning strategy for any for any nation, as I'm surprised Cainehill didn't understand.

1) Increase accuracy of Demons of Heavenly Fire? I certainly have noticed their inaccuracy in SP play, and I'd think that would be crippling in MP play.

You should be increasing their accuracy yourself, using Aim and/or Wind Guide.

2) Increase the number of Demons of Heavenly River per summoning - perhaps with increased gem cost? It might be reasonable to do the same for DHF, as well.

Not unreasonable, although S&A well played can field quite respectable numbers of demons as it stands.

One thing I've been wondering - would it be reasonable for Mot5E to be recruitable in non-capital provinces?

Not from a thematic viewpoint, IMO.

I would also say that adding to S&A's gem income goes in the wrong direction. S&A can start it's clam hoarding earlier and easier than any other nation. On top of that, with a combination of a CM plus Mot5E, it gets a broad search team very easily, so should find it easier to search for sites than other nations. All in all, I expect that S&A would tend to be more gem rich than any other nation, as is.

Good points.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Truper:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one who despises the concept that a theme is only going to be viable if you totally trash your scales and make an ungodly SC, especially a VQ.

I agree completely. Boron, with all due respect, I'd have to say that if your aproach is necessary to make the theme viable, then the theme is truly broken.

Boron's approach takes what may be a slightly underpowered theme and makes it completely unplayable. Its income will be so awful that it won't be able to take advantage of the superb S&A Celestial Masters, effectively reducing the entire nation to a single unit - not a winning strategy for any for any nation, as I'm surprised Cainehill didn't understand.

---

why are you so sure that this doesn't work ?
the income is crappy but enough to get 1 celestial master per turn after turn 4-5 .
he is capitol only anyways.
you are somehow dependant from luck but it works well often .
you can pillage a rich province with the dispossed spirits early on to get money .

you are going to be the magical powerhouse mid-lategame .

expansion is still good enough with vq + 2nd small archer army .

as i described very detailed the vq gives you the ability to summon quite a lot .
with magic 3 you are one of the fastest researches .

if you are in danger early or fear it you can research cloud trapeze and interupt the main army with your vq .

i simply don't see why building few troops but focussing on a strong pretender and as quick as possible strong summons isn't viable .

if you really don't like my turmoil 3 you can change to order 3 , that makes -240 points but you have still a decent vq then .

with tien chi you just have a really superior vq . or your preferred other sc pretender .
but so far i love vq most .

edit : if you can give me real evidence and not only claiming that doesn't work perhaps i change my view . but so far you only made assertions and didn't backup them by arguments.

You have about 1/3 income but you need not as many as with other nations . together with luck this really compensates until midgame and then almost all national troops are only fodder nothing else .
due to your superior gem income you will have then you can get lots of magical fodder instead .

simply because my playstyle seems to differ greatly from yours saying this doesn't work is arrogant .

[ July 29, 2004, 19:33: Message edited by: Boron ]

[Boron]

Originally posted by Truper:

I would also say that adding to S&A's gem income goes in the wrong direction. S&A can start it's clam hoarding earlier and easier than any other nation. On top of that, with a combination of a CM plus Mot5E, it gets a broad search team very easily, so should find it easier to search for sites than other nations. All in all, I expect that S&A would tend to be more gem rich than any other nation, as is.

Good points.

as i said so often my strategy absolutely aims at becoming the magic superhouse .
here you totally agree but say my playstile is broken .
so you already disproved your own claim .

and why don't you grant tien chi good access to clams ?

as a side note :
ryleh + atlantis are surely superior clamhorders than tien chi i think most ppl will agree there with me .

[Truper]

The only words I uttered in the quotation posted below that was attributed entirely to me were "Good points".

Your strategy may aim at becoming the magic superhouse - but if so, having 1/3 the income and therefore 1/3 the mages that most nations have is the wrong way to go about it.

I didn't totaly agree with anything you said - I agreed that Thufir made some good points regarding S&A in general, and specifically in regard to whether adding gems to its capital is a good way to go about improving the theme.

[Chris Byler]

But you _can't_ switch to Order-3 with S&A. It requires Turmoil-1 or greater.

If S&A is weak, it is probably (IMO) a symptom of order still being worth more than its point cost, and order needs to be nerfed again; or turmoil is too risky because of catastrophic events even with a strong luck scale, and more catastrophes need to require luck 0 or less, 1 or less, 2 or less. (It is of course still possible for the followers of a lucky god to be struck by catastrophes - but only by the active malevolence of a hostile god or his people, not by chance which is ruled by their own god.) Their military isn't that much worse than base TC, and their mages are better, plus they have the demon summons.

BK has the same problem - required turmoil - plus their units can't work the way they are supposed to (hit and run splits up your army and strands many units without commanders, pillaging enemy territory is too slow and you risk losing a lot more gold than you gain if your raid force is caught; worse, if you're raiding while other nations are taking and holding, you'll be weaker in the long term).