Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!

[Boron]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Boron, why do you think that S&A troops are that awful? I agree with Rabe. (Except that I play with an Earth Mother, and have much success E4 N3, now all my paths are covered but blood -- depending on map and enemies, I take T1 / Prod 1 / Growth 1 / Luck 2 / Magic 3, Dominion 7, Castle -- I have enough money for CMs, get my heroes quickly, and can recruit some troops.)

I think the troops are decent. Composite Bows are fine for 10 gold and a strat-2 move! OK they are not as good as Man, or Caelum, or Tien default, but they are decent. The rest are acceptable for what they are. Plus there are Spirits out of the box, and Demons. (I agree that getting only 1 per turn is a bummer, but I think it is balanced.)

I certainly would have to disagree that S&A national troops are the "worst".

i only quote your post but rabes is in many ways similiar there :

first name me a nation/theme that has worse troops than tien chi s&a . the composite bows are ok and the 2 summons DoHF + DoHW . but the 2 summons are hard to get in sufficient numbers .

so now a new argument :
i have made a test : with 0 scales + watchtower you get about 155-160 starting income ( depends a bit on population sometimes you get 30500 sometimes 29800 in the start )

rabe gets with P3G3T1 H0 about 160-165 starting income .

i get about 90-95 starting income with my scales . so about 55% of rabes income .
but for that i get +240 + 240 +80 + 120 points = a "uber"vq . if i give her e.g. D5 i have access to all the nice death toys without empowering expect tartarians .


at about turn 30 due to my d3 and rabes g3 my income will be only about 45-50% of his but for that i have a "uber"vq .
and luck 3 should compensate for both of us .

so i have vq but weaker economy and rabe has good scales but slower research ( i have magic 3 ) so in research we will still be both as quick .

i still think my approach is not bad too .
it is a bit extravagant but i like it .

[tinkthank]

"Worse" national troops (although caveat: uncontextualized superlatives make NO SENSE in dominions 2, I am only doing this because it seems you want to hear something like this!)

1. Mictlan
2. Pangaia
3. Ermor

Like I said in my caveat, I don't really agree to this, because "worst" makes no sense uncontextualized, but there you go. Consider contexts, such as: Atlantis and Abysia have NO missile troops, Ctis troops have low morale, etc.

with 95 gold per turn, you may have better magic, but you have no one to do the research! You have a great vq, but do you want her to research? You can recruit a ModT per turn, as long as nothing burns down, and they are fine researchers to be sure, but that is it.

Like I said in my first post here, it seems that these scales can be applied to any nation with exactly the same degree of success; thus, it seems like
1. an odd idea to want to apply it to S&A.
2. a scary idea, because if it is good for everyone, then it is an "easy one-size-fits-all" solution, and these are notoriously inadmissable in Dom2.
Thus, I doubt its validity.

[Mardagg]

I like S&A and I dont think that it needs improvement.
I had been quite succesful in SP games with following scales:
Turmoil:1
Sloth:2
Temp:0
Growth:3
Luck:3
Magic:3

Watch Tower,Dominion 5.
Ghost King 2W,3E,4D.

My approach seems to be exactly in between Boron`s and Rabe`s
Goal is to rely completely on summoned troops/battle mage armies as fast as possible.
S&A seems to fit very well for such a tactic:
-you have several nice starting summoning spells
-you have extremely good site search abilities
-you have very strong battle mages
-you have good research right from the start,if you only recruit national mages,no troops.

For initial expansion,I have my Ghost King SC,who, if played correctly,is very strong in conquering Indie provinces(indie strength 6 or 7),starting with it at turn 3.

I didnt play a MP game with this yet though.
I guess on a crowded map,I could have difficulties if I encounter a nation with strong national troops at the start,who is able to deal with my Breath of Winter Ghost King,e.g. Jotunheim,before I get my summonings rolling.

[Boron]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
"Worse" national troops (although caveat: uncontextualized superlatives make NO SENSE in dominions 2, I am only doing this because it seems you want to hear something like this!)

1. Mictlan
2. Pangaia
3. Ermor

Like I said in my caveat, I don't really agree to this, because "worst" makes no sense uncontextualized, but there you go. Consider contexts, such as: Atlantis and Abysia have NO missile troops, Ctis troops have low morale, etc.

with 95 gold per turn, you may have better magic, but you have no one to do the research! You have a great vq, but do you want her to research? You can recruit a ModT per turn, as long as nothing burns down, and they are fine researchers to be sure, but that is it.

Like I said in my first post here, it seems that these scales can be applied to any nation with exactly the same degree of success; thus, it seems like
1. an odd idea to want to apply it to S&A.
2. a scary idea, because if it is good for everyone, then it is an "easy one-size-fits-all" solution, and these are notoriously inadmissable in Dom2.
Thus, I doubt its validity.

yeah everybody has his own style

but to your suggestions of worse troops :
pangenea + ermor all themes have at least partially upkeep free freespawns / reanimations .
ok not pangenea new age but pan standard has maenads . and their normal troops are pretty good , e.g. minotaurs , revelrers .
if you mean with ermor be ermor they have principles + a kind of praetorian guard ( can't remember the name ) they have almost the same statistics as the pythium counterparts .

finally mictlan : they seem to have bad troops too but slaves are almost for free and they should seek their glory in demons anyway .
their sacred troops are not too bad .

tien chi s&a has really only the archers + the footmen worth being recruited .
but with their FORCED turmoil 1 if they want to compensate they need to invest 240 points to get the same income as any other nation who has totally flat scales .

any other nation can take order 3 death 2-3 sloth 2-3 and has higher income than tien chi s&a can ever reach .
but they have +40-120 points to spend on pretender while tien chi has to spend -240 points on economy scales .
+ additional -80 points by luck 1 and magic 1 forced by the theme .

so only few points are left for pretender .
if you want the ability to summon your first midgame summons without need for empower you need to take it on your pretender even with tien chi s&a .
the highest you may ever get in fire or air with tien chi is 3 on a celestial master .
but that only with 1/64 probability .

expect coatl all summonable mages need at least 3 more likely 4 or 5 in one path .

furthermore most path increasing items need a forge skill in the path of 3 .


with your economy scales you can only reach a income similiar to flat scales .

if my build is too extreme then take away cold 3 and turmoil 3 but keep sloth 3 and death 3 .

still i have + 240 points from sloth + death this way and only about 20-30% lower income then you with the investment of 240 points for growth 3 + prod 3 .

i have this way +480 points for only 20 - 30 % less income .


s&a is really a special case there because i know no other theme / nation which forces you to take turmoil .

with most other races i of course go too order 3 , death 2-3 and sloth 2-3 .

but because order 3 is impossible with turmoil 1+ and to compensate by growth + productivity is too expensive imho i completely go ermorlike scales with them .


if an early war breaks out i have at least a vq to scare some invaders off and you have no early game combat pretender .

as i showed most other nations have about +400 extra points for sc pretender design compared to your scales rabe and tinktank .

what troops do you use midgame then rabe ?
if you find no independent good mages and because you have a 0 magic nataraja as you said your best bet for midgame is to hope for a air 3 celestial master ( 1/64 probability ) and forge 2 +1 air items for air queens .

if man / vanheim participate they will have them earlier than you .

so you have a really hard time to field any additional sc's .

my vq instead has the ability to summon the whole death spectrum .
if i midgame summon e.g. a wraithlord he can then summon the following bane lords + item forge .

so please tell me rabe what magic troops can you field midgame to strengthen your armies ?

really curious i know i must have overlooked something with my assertions

[Boron]

Originally posted by Mardagg:
I like S&A and I dont think that it needs improvement.
I had been quite succesful in SP games with following scales:
Turmoil:1
Sloth:2
Temp:0
Growth:3
Luck:3
Magic:3

Watch Tower,Dominion 5.
Ghost King 2W,3E,4D.

My approach seems to be exactly in between Boron`s and Rabe`s
Goal is to rely completely on summoned troops/battle mage armies as fast as possible.
S&A seems to fit very well for such a tactic:
-you have several nice starting summoning spells
-you have extremely good site search abilities
-you have very strong battle mages
-you have good research right from the start,if you only recruit national mages,no troops.

For initial expansion,I have my Ghost King SC,who, if played correctly,is very strong in conquering Indie provinces(indie strength 6 or 7),starting with it at turn 3.

I didnt play a MP game with this yet though.
I guess on a crowded map,I could have difficulties if I encounter a nation with strong national troops at the start,who is able to deal with my Breath of Winter Ghost King,e.g. Jotunheim,before I get my summonings rolling.

you are very close to my approach ihmo
my attempt is only a bit more radical but my "modest" suggestion with heat 0 and turmoil 1 is almost like your approach

we have exactly the same key opinions with tien chi s&a
-screw national troops almost 100%
-rely for expansion on sc pretender mainly
-use the sc to summon the first midgame mages
-rely on summons , your sc pretender can summon a lot

your ghostking can as my vq easily summon the whole bunch of death troops . only for wraith lords you need 1 empowerment ( cheap , 10 gems 2 handed death staff ) . only tartarians are a bit hard to achieve but wraith lords + bane lords are absolutely sufficient .

thnx for sharing my viewpoint Mardagg

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by Boron:
you are very close to my approach ihmo
my attempt is only a bit more radical but my "modest" suggestion with heat 0 and turmoil 1 is almost like your approach

we have exactly the same key opinions with tien chi s&a
-screw national troops almost 100%
-rely for expansion on sc pretender mainly
-use the sc to summon the first midgame mages
-rely on summons , your sc pretender can summon a lot

your ghostking can as my vq easily summon the whole bunch of death troops . only for wraith lords you need 1 empowerment ( cheap , 10 gems 2 handed death staff ) . only tartarians are a bit hard to achieve but wraith lords + bane lords are absolutely sufficient .

thnx for sharing my viewpoint Mardagg [/QB]

Actually I didnt read your modest suggestion when writing my reply
So,concerning your radical strat,I should be exactly in between yours and Rabe`s.
Still,even with your modest suggestion,there are some more or less important differences between our approaches left :

-Death:3
I go exactly for the opposite here
If I plan to go for summonings and good research ,I dont want to play too agressively in MP.
With Growth 3,I am able to adapt to every game situation and ,if necessary,to not expand for quite a while,just relying on good gem income/research.
After all,my income increases,even when I dont expand.
Also you have to keep in mind,that while certainly being on top in gem income and research with such a strat,you should not be on top in provinces,otherwise there will be quite likely an alliance formed against you....with Death:3 you will need quite a lot provinces to compensate,though.

-VQ:

You pay a lot for your VQ.
Personally,I dont fear a strong VQ that much.
With S&A,Imo,you only need a SC for early expansion and to scare away early opponents.The Ghost King will do this nearly as good as the VQ,even though you have to be more careful concerning battle afflictions,but you get much better scales and dont need that much a high dominion.
Even worse,with VQ,high Dominion AND Death :3 ,you can be sure,that noone will like you,except maybe Ermor and CW-Pangaea.
So,while both of us aim for strong high end summonings ,you most likely will be in wars early on and this will slow down you a lot

Btw,for Tartarian Gate,Death 4 is enough.
I always forge at least 1 Ring of Sorcery,expecially when I have Dwarfen Hammers,and this is enough for Tartarian Gate,together with the other Death enhancing items.

[Boron]

thats true Mardagg that my scales will make me a bit unpopular .

ermor , pan cw , perhaps bf ulm ( forced to take death 1 ) and abysia ( no income loss due to death ) are really the only ones which come to my mind with deathscale .

but all in all deathscale is not too evil even with death 3 on turn 50 only 26% of your population have died through deathscale .
on the other hand you have +35% population by then .

mid - lategame high growth doesn't prevent you from population mass kill spells though and bad events .

there are simply no easy choices in dominions ( only really few ) . i have +240 points through death 3 and so can afford a vq so no problem if she dies earlygame .
you have though better economy earlygame but midgame you become a good target for population mass kill spells at least in your 30k+ population provinces .

my tien chi s&a is really quite similiar to ermor .
only thing to pay upkeep for are mages and really FEW archers + footmen for earlygame expansion .

normally luck 3 is just enough to have enough cash but not more .
if i have really bad luck i still can either sell forged items to other players or pillage a province e.g. underwater provinces earlygame which i likely can't keep against ryleh anyways if it comes to a war .

edit : if i take at least air 2 for my vq i have a nice advantage in early - midgame defense though because per cloud trapeze she can pick her battles so no need to guess moves .

your ghostking is really nice but he lacks fly + regeneration + immortality 3 abilities i love with the vq . your ghostking shares 0 basic protection .

so earlygame after buffresearch i can use my vq against every indeps even if she dies not too much is lost while you always have to either worry a bit with about 20% of the indy provinces .
e.g. knights may be lucky and give you a nasty early game affliction . he could become feeble minded and your healing hero doesn't show up too .

especially in these dangerous provinces though are often strong magic sites which tien chi needs so urgent .

a Last thought : although my scales are so economic hostile i will have in defending battles some advantages :
-cold 3 works in favour of my undead hordes
-in low population provinces enemies with lots of troops are forced to either fight with starving or forge supply items


your strat allows better bloodhunting though with some lucky randoms because the population slowly regrows .

[ August 02, 2004, 16:30: Message edited by: Boron ]