Why no love for Caelum?

That is the absolute first time I've heard of Caelum being the 'province defense killers'. There are alot of problems with Province defense and it's feasibility/usability vs Castles, but Seraph are not top on the list. Any point after turn 20 in the game there are so many things that can kill high costing PD that Seraphs are the least of your worries.

Anything with Raise Skeletons, quickness/frozen heart, false horror, blade wind can clear most PD without much effort. The main problem with PD is that they are so vulnerable to even mini-combatants.

Caelum is more than likely Banned in most of those games, because of the new influx of Map Designers, and their tendancy to overterrain maps. Causing nearly all nations to be at a strategic disadvantage and Air being more overwhelming than it already is. In such instances of heavy terrain flagged maps, flying is king and Caelum is king of flying and Air Gems for summons that fly and flying boots.

[The_Tauren13]

that sounds very reasonable, zen.
perhaps thats why i like small, clear maps like inland or urgaia

[Stormbinder]

That is the absolute first time I've heard of Caelum being the 'province defense killers'.

Everything happens for the first time Zen. Name any other national 100gp commander who can kill/rout any realistic number of PD without any items. Single Sauromancer with raise skeletons (or Dwarf with bladewind) would not even come close, despite costing 180gp. Unlike skeletons, flase horrors are flying, eterial, high defense, and they mostly rout, not kill. The effect is the same though.

Master's of the Way. Seithkona, Theurgs (At 150), Initiates of the Deep.

There are quite a few, they just don't happen to all fly as well. If you are so concerned with PD and their lack of fightability during any stage of the game, you are probably up the ganjies without a paddle.

[Boron]

hm i didn't play caelum much and have not an as long expierience in dominions as you zen and stormbinder but i think stormbinder is really right about caelum .

until turn 20-30 you have a very hard time to defend against a good caelum player i think .

that all their troops have magic weapons is brutal.
earlygame some caelum fliers can kill almost every sc pretender who needs to buff first and has little protection .

they can produce the most mages and everywhere .
earlygame the battle lightning spells like lightning / orbligthning are very brutal too because most nations can't protect their troops in this stage via lightning .

then just switch to stormbinders described battle tactic .
even for a seraph with 2a the false horror causes only about 9 fatigue( when i understand the sytem right perhaps a bit more or less) so he can masssummon horrorhordes .

20 mages doing this is would be 40 horrors each combat round and as caelum 20 mages are hard to get .

they have airqueens later as Uberscs and they can clamhoard .

from cold 3 you get +120 extrapretenderpoints and you can take sloth 3 too with them .


i think the main problem is that no other nation can earlygame attack 5-10 provinces in 1 turn with stormbinders described methods .

this way they easy can encircle others and then when they rout all is wiped out .
scs who need to buff do bad against them .

so i think stormbinder and cohen are really true claiming caelum is too strong .

[Boron]

it forces you to madcastle . so when you would need a expensive 40 admin castle where you can only castle chokepoints / special provinces for resources you look really bad against caelum ( and to a lesser extent against abysia with flying demon armies ).

perhaps i am unexpierienced but name me any other race who can earlygame with only mages + national troops attack 5+ provinces at once and wipe out pd + a small garrison easy .

and lategame thnx to their clamhoard abilities + many points in pretenderdesign they can either make a clamhoard industry or get lots of blood too with the B1 high seraphs / sages .

so caelum is probably really too strong .

[Kel]

until turn 20-30 you have a very hard time to defend against a good caelum player i think .

earlygame some caelum fliers can kill almost every sc pretender who needs to buff first and has little protection

they can produce the most mages and everywhere .
earlygame the battle lightning spells like lightning / orbligthning are very brutal too because most nations can't protect their troops in this stage via lightning .

then just switch to stormbinders described battle tactic .
even for a seraph with 2a the false horror causes only about 9 fatigue( when i understand the sytem right perhaps a bit more or less) so he can masssummon horrorhordes .

20 mages doing this is would be 40 horrors each combat round and as caelum 20 mages are hard to get .

i think the main problem is that no other nation can earlygame attack 5-10 provinces in 1 turn with stormbinders described methods .

I have little opinion on whether Caelum is over-powered or not (or at least over-powered enough to warrant a nerf).

However, I would like to point out that everyone seems to be talking about using false horror and orb lightning in the early game but these aren't level 1-3 spells. Orb lightning is what, level 5 in evo and false horror is alt-6, iirc ?

Yes, you can get to one of these levels fairly quickly but if we are still talking about early game, we are only talking about a fairly narrow time frame, after they have researched the spells but before it becomes mid game (the definition of mid game probably varies, anyway).

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think they are strong at that certain point in the game but you have to look at the whole game to determine balance, most races are stronger at certain points in the game. Again, I am not saying that they are or are not over-powered, I am just saying that being strong for a 10-15 turn timeframe is not, in and of itself, over-powering.

To compare them to Ermor, in terms of there ability to conquer indies, isn't fair as Ermor is much more effective at bulldozing indies in *all* of the early game, which is far more important, than just the latter portion of the early game.

- Kel

[Boron]

@ kel i said that earlygame either horrors or lighning / orb lightning .

lightning is only evo 2 so researching lighning against knights and the like and then alteration 6 doesn't take too long especially since the caelum mages are so cheap and you can build soon 2 / turn with your first castle/lab and take magic 3 scale easy (cold 3 pays that e.g. )

i doubt that ermor is better earlygame they have to decide whether to research or to expand .
and more important :
ermor can't fly and even earlygame has a hard time to overwhelm enemies with good priests , d1 mages ( dust to dust ) .

i think no other race can attack out of the sudden lots of provinces like caelum with good chances to succeed like caelum early-midgame .

caelum would win against ermor most likely too easy .
stealthpreach seraphines and the ermorian hordes get killed easy by the lighningspells etc.
the archers will kill lots of ermorian undeads quick too .

kel could you please share why you think ermor is perhaps overpowered . i personally find them weak though i like them .
furthermore i think lots of ermor is overpowered has to do with 2 reasons :
pre 2.12 : vq for ermor
norfleet often played ermor

[Boron]

hm perhaps a bit of fear for caelum and ermor comes really because norfleet played these 2 races very often right ?

[Kel]

lightning is only evo 2 so researching lighning against knights and the like and then alteration 6 doesn't take too long

You are entirely missing my point. I said, myself, it doesn't take that long. I also said that nonetheless it is a portion of the early game in which they are not 'over-powered' by your definition (early expansion). Thus, they are only powerful, in the way you describe, in the latter part of the early game. That doesn't seem so bad to me.

As for using lightning early on, are you really saying that in the first 10 turns, you are expanding faster than other nations by using lightning scripted seraphs ? Pfft, and you are still getting to level 6 research fast, too ?

kel could you please share why you think ermor is perhaps overpowered . i personally find them weak though i like them

I didn't say they were. I said they were good at early expansion against indies. I don't think that early expansion against indies is the only factor to consider in determining whether a nation is over-powered. In fact, that was the whole point of my post

And all this stuff about Norfleet and what he played is ridiculous. I only played with Norfleet a couple times, a long time ago, let's not use him as a basis for every single discussion of balance, please (and this is directed at everyone, not you).

- Kel