lategame balance . are my concerns true ?

[Cainehill]

Boron said:
i think vampire lords with vampires are TOO ALLROUND .
they are good against almost everything and if you need to defend they are really great too .

Actually, given your previous Posts mentioning clam hoarding and using the wish spell, it sounds like Wish is the thing that is too powerful, because you can make any number of very highly overpowered late game strategies using it.

Which is why, I believe, there's an official mod that removes Wish from the game. End of problem.

Without Wish, you don't have a relatively cheap way to boost all your magic paths, you don't have the incentive to put high astral magic on your (typically immortal) pretender, and it becomes quite difficult to have _all_ the spells, items, and summonses you're talking about.

[Boron]

Cainehill said:

Actually, given your previous Posts mentioning clam hoarding and using the wish spell, it sounds like Wish is the thing that is too powerful, because you can make any number of very highly overpowered late game strategies using it.

Which is why, I believe, there's an official mod that removes Wish from the game. End of problem.

Without Wish, you don't have a relatively cheap way to boost all your magic paths, you don't have the incentive to put high astral magic on your (typically immortal) pretender, and it becomes quite difficult to have _all_ the spells, items, and summonses you're talking about.

removing wish would be really bad because it disadvantages those nations for which it was designed more likely too much .
especially ryleh + atlantis are those nations .


abysia + mictlan can get a pretty high blood hunt blood income too .
so not wish is the real problem but that vampire lords are just too cheap .

all in all it is a combo :
-blood is easy aquireable
-clams are good
-with the astral pearls from clams wish becomes quite useful
-one of the best wishes is wishing for blood
-vampire lords are probably the nonunique bloodsummon with the highest RoI

all these facts play into the strength of vampires .
every nation can start making clams midgame when you summon a few spectres .


the only other thing which is similiar effective because it is too cheap is massproducing tartarians in combination with healing + goring the good ones and turning them into SCs .

[Cainehill]

Boron said:

removing wish would be really bad because it disadvantages those nations for which it was designed more likely too much .
especially ryleh + atlantis are those nations .

Actually, I think Wish was designed for SP games more than it was "designed" for R'lyeh and Atlantis.

The other thing about your strategy - it might work once against a given set of players, but the next time they play against you and see you taking one of the blood or astral nations, they're simply going to go out of their way to stomp you early, instead of going after independents.

[Boron]

Cainehill said:

Actually, I think Wish was designed for SP games more than it was "designed" for R'lyeh and Atlantis.

The other thing about your strategy - it might work once against a given set of players, but the next time they play against you and see you taking one of the blood or astral nations, they're simply going to go out of their way to stomp you early, instead of going after independents.

players should play without having earlier games in mind .
nobody can win if several players ally earlygame against him .


since most ppl who play dominions are very mature and know that this would be childish making pregame alliances only to take revenge because they lost in an earlier game i hope it doesn't happen anyways .

edit :
p.s. i remember that in an older post i think either gandalf or johan said that clams were designed for atlantis especially .
so i think you can say wish was designed for them too cause wish is one of the best uses for your clam astral pearls

[Cainehill]

Boron said:

players should play without having earlier games in mind .
nobody can win if several players ally earlygame against him .

Why? If I know that a particular player always does the same thing, why on earth wouldn't I use that knowledge? I'm not saying pre-game alliances, I'm saying that I'd target that player differently from another. If someone continually backstabs and breaks alliances - I'm not going to make treaties with that player.

If someone constantly plays wild gambles and then quits the game in a sulk when the gamble fails, I'm going to remember that and be prepared to counter it.

And if someone continually uses a particular strategy, why should I be stupid enough to cooperate with them by not attempting to disrupt it?

since most ppl who play dominions are very mature and know that this would be childish making pregame alliances only to take revenge because they lost in an earlier game i hope it doesn't happen anyways .

How is it revenge? If I know that you are playing to hoard astral gems and build vampire hordes, why should I ignore that, leave you alone, and let you get to your "unbeatable" end game strategy?

If you want to play the same strategy over and over again, damn straight I'm going to try and counter it. It's an old military chestnut: Know your enemy. Know what a given commander is prone to do, and try to use that against him.

Sorry, but I'm not going to play dumb - I know certain players are untrustworthy, and I keep that in mind. I know certain players like to use "rush" tactics, and if they're near me, I'm going to change my strategy to repulse them. If I know a certain player is going to do the same things over and over, like running a lone Virtue pretender way ahead of his armies, I'm going to try to trap and kill Anya.

And if I suspect someone is going to clam hoard and vampire horde, I'm going to try and clean their clock before they get that working.

(And for those who say, "Well, some games I play completely trustworthy, and some games I play completely backstabbing" - you get jotted down as untrustworthy.)

p.s. i remember that in an older post i think either gandalf or johan said that clams were designed for atlantis especially .
so i think you can say wish was designed for them too cause wish is one of the best uses for your clam astral pearls

Feh. There is a _lot_ of good uses for astral pearls, clam produced or not. For example: with a mere 20 clams, you can produce an extra 10 gems of _any_ kind each turn. Only have 1 nature gem coming in each turn but want to GoR or GoH? No problem - convert those clam pearls into nature gems. Now you want a lich, but don't have any death income? No problem.

Wish is basically a cheesy spell in MP games. IMO.

[Boron]

i thought caine you meant you would simply berserk on me in every future game then and would be content if you had only killed me and are shortly after killed by someone else.


but as you describe you would act it is fine and not what i meant . i would do the same
of course i don't do only vampire hordes but different things too .
it is just whenever i can get some clams / vampires i hoard them knowing that they are good .


if i play e.g. abysia i plan on vampires or soul contracts and stock my blood . if i notice that someone wants to attack me early then of course i do summon devils e.g. and not wait until he kills me .

i just still think that vampires with all their special abilities and their cheapness are a bit too strong .

if someone masses storm demons you just counter by a few lighning immune summons / scs .
same with other examples .


but vampires come again and again which makes them the perfect defensive weapon and once you win the dominionwar or you get so many allysummons that they become disposible too they are even perfect offensive weapons .

so i can use 50% of my resources on vampires and 50% on other things for offense and send all offensive weapons knowing that the vampires are most probably enough to defeat anything which attacks me anyways at least after a couple of attempts .


if you can only beat a vampire horde by rushing the one trying to use it it is actually a proof that it really seems a bit overpowered . otherwise there would be no need to rush .
vampires are just the ultimative soldier in dominion . totally exposeable but strong enough to win many battles on their own already .



if you can name me one other unit which is an even better allrounder than the vampire and explain why then i will agree that i was wrong .
but otherwise this proofs that i am probably really right .

[Tuidjy]

You are worrying for nothing. Hordes of vampires are available only in late
game, and there are plenty of strategies that are at least that good. I have
to admit that I have never faced vampire hordes, but I have messed up devil
hordes simply by teleporting three independant sorceresses on top of Cohen's
main spawn point, and casting wrathful skies and enough horrors to keep the
devils from sprinting to the casters, and then reteating. (I brought a SoS.)
Yes, vampires are immortal, and yes, they will be back, but they are nothing to
write home about. If anything, they will rout much more easily that the devils.

Furthermore, I have had three supercombatants (two arch devils and a heliophagus)
run into a small pack of vampires (30-40) and demolish them... I was surprised,
because my guys were not decked out for undead hunting. But if I had the
chance to properly outfit them (fire shield + fatigue regeneration) I would
bet on five SCs against 500 vampires. (Storm is a must, though) But frankly, by
the time you have hundreds of vampires, your enemy will have something else.

As for domain pushes, you do not need stealthy priests. You need to take
territory, and convert it.

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
if you can name me one other unit which is an even better allrounder than the vampire and explain why then i will agree that i was wrong .

A devil is a better all around unit. It has better attack and defense stats, two attacks, more hitpoints, 15 armour, radiate heat, and have fire immunity. They can be produced by soul contracts in extremely large numbers, and these contracts provide an effective blood income of 7 slaves per turn, which is larger than the vampire lords effective income of 4.3 per turn.

No, they aren't immortal, but they are harder to kill. Blade wind won't have too much effect and fire spells do nothing. They are less vulnerable to air magic with their higher hitpoints, and are also less vulnerable to ice strike, which will decimate vampires.