Poll: morale and routing

[Graeme Dice]

Thufir said:
I third that. This forum is the worse for such immaturity.

I think Cainehill said exactly what needed to be said in this case.

1) Increase the penalty for being surrounded.

The penalty for being surrounded by size 2 units is currently a minimum of 18 defense points by the end of each turn. That's not small.

2) Add maintenance cost for summons. I'd also like to see a maintenance cost for Ritual spells with continuing affects.

I don't know why people have such a liking for this idea, as the very thing that makes the game worthwhile is that magic is actually powerful, unlike the vast majority of fantasy games.

[Arryn]

Graeme Dice said:
I think Cainehill said exactly what needed to be said in this case.

Agreed.

Graeme Dice said:
I don't know why people have such a liking for this idea, as the very thing that makes the game worthwhile is that magic is actually powerful, unlike the vast majority of fantasy games.

Because a very vocal minority of players, whose names we're quite familiar with, want to turn Dominions into just another in that vast sea of mediocre games.

Furthermore, Johan has already categorically stated IW's official view on the subject, yet this same vocal (dense/oblivious) minority continue to beat their drum hoping to either deafen or tire the rest of us into submission to their whims. Newsflash: won't happen.

[Boron]

Arryn said:

Agreed.

Because a very vocal minority of players, whose names we're quite familiar with, want to turn Dominions into just another in that vast sea of mediocre games.

Furthermore, Johan has already categorically stated IW's official view on the subject, yet this same vocal (dense/oblivious) minority continue to beat their drum hoping to either deafen or tire the rest of us into submission to their whims. Newsflash: won't happen.

arryn how can exactly you say this ?
you play mainly sp and you like jotunheim which is one of the few nations which has half useful national troops .


i remember that norfleet always wanted to invite you to mp-games and he seemed to never succeed .
so unless you played now many mp-games of dominions 2 since the about 3 weeks since norfleet is gone for you such statings are sorry to say that almost unqualified .

in sp you can win by almost everything so there the balance issue doesn't become obvious .

edit : furthermore i think it was you who always said dominions 2 is a worthy successor to master of magic .
since in master of magic you had upkeep for your summons so why do you like this in dominions then that there is no upkeep ?

[Arryn]

Boron said:
you play mainly sp and you like jotunheim which is one of the few nations which has half useful national troops .

There you go again assuming things. First, while I do like Jotuns, I also play Ulm and R'leyh quite often. And Marignon. I've also played quite a bit in MP. Perhaps even more than you have, given the sort of nonsense I keep seeing you spout regarding balance issues. I think it was Zen who pointed out to you a while ago that you should theorize less and actually play the game more. Perhaps if you did you'd have a better appreciation of things as they really are, and of the ramifications of some of the half-baked ideas that are being floated.

Boron said:
i remember that norfleet always wanted to invite you to mp-games and he seemed to never succeed .

And that proves what? Did it ever occur to you that I might not have wanted to play in games against him, for any one of several different reasons? And that perhaps I was being polite in turning him down? Or that I might (and do) join games under other aliases? (However, unlike Norfleet, I don't do so with the intent to pump people for secrets. I simply prefer people I play against to not know who it is they are facing.)

Boron said:
so unless you played now many mp-games of dominions 2 since the about 3 weeks since norfleet is gone for you such statings are sorry to say that almost unqualified .

Gee, an unsolicited personal attack. Thank you.

The idea that you are an expert in judging the qualifications of anyone else is not only insulting, but it's laughable. I also do not suppose that it ever occured to you that there are many players of Dominions that have been very active in playing the game, yet never (or rarely) post on the forum? Would you call these players "unqualified" as well, simply because you're totally ignorant of them?

Cainehill may have been wrong to actually flame you, but I cannot fault his reasons why he wanted to. It's taking a major effort of willpower for me to not do so as well.

What's amusing to me is despite my having been accused on various occasions of arrogance, in the various flamefests that GD (and others) have had with me, neither they nor I have ever accused the other of "being unqualified". The sheer arrogance you have just shown is astounding.

Boron said:
edit : furthermore i think it was you who always said dominions 2 is a worthy successor to master of magic .

Wrong. Wasn't me. As a matter of fact, I got chewed on for having compared the two games, because they are quite different in some respects. Also, I think that Dom 2 is by far better than MoM ever was, and I've been semi-flamed for that opinion.

[Boron]

sorry arryn i didn't want to attack you personally .
i play as many games as i can .
i am in in 8 games on mosehansen + on sheaps server


i never said i am an expert but i just wanted to share what i thought i discovered . cohen though is an expert and he comes to my mind he always claimed about similiar things than i did .

There you go again assuming things. First, while I do like Jotuns, I also play Ulm and R'leyh quite often. And Marignon.

these nations you have to admit though have all gotten rather good national troops .



i am just trying to share my viewpoint that the dominion experience would become even stronger with my suggested small modifications .

it is just unfair as it is that you have to pay no upkeep for your summons .

since especially starcraft is such a good example how attractive (almost) perfect balance is and i don't see any point which would make scs useless when they cost upkeep i wonder why my ideas meet so much dislike .


my theory is though since it takes you some time to realize how overpowered scs currently are and this is an unique feature of dominions so i think most ppl just complain because they have developed perfect strats to rush at e.g. air queens + equip them .

with my proposed upkeep this would still be true but they would have to pay something for this too .

but so the variety of dominions would greatly increase and it would be more fair .




name me 2 players who have about the same experience .
then let 1 of them play atlantis and one of them any other nation .


if anyone thinks he could win playing atlantis against any other nation against a player with about the same skill level in a standard 50% magic sites / normal research game then i will be (perhaps) quiet .


but since scs are overpowered and mainly the air queens and the ice devils are particular attractive caelum , abysia and jotunheim and vanheim are taken all very quickly in a new game always .
these nations have furthermore in common that they have lots of free extra points by scales since they have cold/heat and most of them can take sloth scale + watchtower easy too .


in starcraft i can play either zerg or toss or terra just the nation i like but i know that i have the same chance to win with every of them .

if i would like e.g. atlantis or tien chi ( base + barbarian kings ) i am forced to play them in sp only .
if i want to play them in mp it is like i voluntary handicap myself .

[Boron]

i have made so many arguments now why there should be upkeep cost for summons .

can anyone of you give me 1 conclusive argument why summons + national troops should be treated different upkeep wise or why the current upkeep system of dominions is fair ?

[archaeolept]

its boring and makes no sense to charge summons upkeep.

neither is it necessary, nor would it solve any fundamental problems, as conventionaly troops would still be as underpowered (when they are, which is usually).

cohen though is an expert

quoted for emphasis, or perhaps hilarity ;-)

I do generally agree that conventional troops lose their potency too quickly and too easily. Making SC's somewhat less efficient would be the route I would take - for instance, lowering the lifestealing effect for items/spells.

[Gandalf Parker]

Boron said:
i have made so many arguments now why there should be upkeep cost for summons .

can anyone of you give me 1 conclusive argument why summons + national troops should be treated different upkeep wise or why the current upkeep system of dominions is fair ?

Summons and national troops are different.
Much of your discussion is based on personal opinion.
As in many threads Ive seen, Illwinter made a response early on. No matter how much discussion has followed, I would consider that to be the response until you hear otherwise.
How many responses do you need?

boron wrote

i have made so many arguments now why there should be upkeep cost for summons .

can anyone of you give me 1 conclusive argument why summons + national troops should be treated different upkeep wise or why the current upkeep system of dominions is fair ?

1. It's not a question of "fair". It's a question of achieving the overal thematic feel that the developers want, while retaining overall game balance.

2. Walking trees can't do anything with gold, so why would they want to be paid with it?

3. Powerful magics and monsters are cool. That's why mahy of us play Dominions. I don't want to play a game that's focused on national troops, because that would be too much like World War II with funny names.

4. Small changes can have massive and hard-to-predict effects. So the default position should be, IMO, that the only reason to introduce a change is to fix something that's broken. The game works. Until you can demonstrate such broken-ness based on actual MP experience, the conservatives such as myselft are not going to agree that changes should be made.

Mark

[Arryn]

Boron said:
cohen though is an expert

Most assuredly NOT! There's about a half-dozen names that come to my mind, and he's not only not on that short list, but not even in the top 20. My advice is to find better role-models than you've been quoting for the past few days.

Boron said:
it is just unfair as it is that you have to pay no upkeep for your summons .

Unfair? How?

Boron said:
since especially starcraft is such a good example how attractive (almost) perfect balance is

If ever there's a case for a meaningless comparison between vastly dissimilar things, this is one of them. You cannot draw any sort of valid comparison between Dom 2 and Starcraft, other than that they are both computer games, and that they both involve some element of strategy in playing. The similarities end there.

Boron said:
and i don't see any point which would make scs useless when they cost upkeep i wonder why my ideas meet so much dislike .

Several people have tried, repeatedly, to explain this to you -- including one of the game developers -- to no avail. You just are not listening to what they are saying. You are too busy arguing your own point.

Boron said:
but since scs are overpowered

Not true. And this has been hashed out and beaten to death in quite a few threads. But you (and others) refuse to be swayed from your firm beliefs, in spite of the detailed explanations you've been given by various people as to why you're mistaken. Yet you continue to harp on this, and then some folks take offense when I use the term "whine" to describe such irrational behavior.

Boron said:
in starcraft i can play

Would you please, please quit comparing Dom 2 to SC? It's not only a bogus comparison, it's also getting quite annoying. Dom 2 isn't SC. Get over it. Or go play SC.

Boron said:
if i would like e.g. atlantis or tien chi ( base + barbarian kings ) i am forced to play them in sp only .
if i want to play them in mp it is like i voluntary handicap myself .

That's your own lack of experience showing. Zen had no such problems. I know this firsthand. Please don't cite your own shortcomings as any sort of reason to change the game.