Poll: morale and routing

[Arryn]

Boron said:
you play mainly sp and you like jotunheim which is one of the few nations which has half useful national troops .

There you go again assuming things. First, while I do like Jotuns, I also play Ulm and R'leyh quite often. And Marignon. I've also played quite a bit in MP. Perhaps even more than you have, given the sort of nonsense I keep seeing you spout regarding balance issues. I think it was Zen who pointed out to you a while ago that you should theorize less and actually play the game more. Perhaps if you did you'd have a better appreciation of things as they really are, and of the ramifications of some of the half-baked ideas that are being floated.

Boron said:
i remember that norfleet always wanted to invite you to mp-games and he seemed to never succeed .

And that proves what? Did it ever occur to you that I might not have wanted to play in games against him, for any one of several different reasons? And that perhaps I was being polite in turning him down? Or that I might (and do) join games under other aliases? (However, unlike Norfleet, I don't do so with the intent to pump people for secrets. I simply prefer people I play against to not know who it is they are facing.)

Boron said:
so unless you played now many mp-games of dominions 2 since the about 3 weeks since norfleet is gone for you such statings are sorry to say that almost unqualified .

Gee, an unsolicited personal attack. Thank you.

The idea that you are an expert in judging the qualifications of anyone else is not only insulting, but it's laughable. I also do not suppose that it ever occured to you that there are many players of Dominions that have been very active in playing the game, yet never (or rarely) post on the forum? Would you call these players "unqualified" as well, simply because you're totally ignorant of them?

Cainehill may have been wrong to actually flame you, but I cannot fault his reasons why he wanted to. It's taking a major effort of willpower for me to not do so as well.

What's amusing to me is despite my having been accused on various occasions of arrogance, in the various flamefests that GD (and others) have had with me, neither they nor I have ever accused the other of "being unqualified". The sheer arrogance you have just shown is astounding.

Boron said:
edit : furthermore i think it was you who always said dominions 2 is a worthy successor to master of magic .

Wrong. Wasn't me. As a matter of fact, I got chewed on for having compared the two games, because they are quite different in some respects. Also, I think that Dom 2 is by far better than MoM ever was, and I've been semi-flamed for that opinion.

[Boron]

sorry arryn i didn't want to attack you personally .
i play as many games as i can .
i am in in 8 games on mosehansen + on sheaps server


i never said i am an expert but i just wanted to share what i thought i discovered . cohen though is an expert and he comes to my mind he always claimed about similiar things than i did .

There you go again assuming things. First, while I do like Jotuns, I also play Ulm and R'leyh quite often. And Marignon.

these nations you have to admit though have all gotten rather good national troops .



i am just trying to share my viewpoint that the dominion experience would become even stronger with my suggested small modifications .

it is just unfair as it is that you have to pay no upkeep for your summons .

since especially starcraft is such a good example how attractive (almost) perfect balance is and i don't see any point which would make scs useless when they cost upkeep i wonder why my ideas meet so much dislike .


my theory is though since it takes you some time to realize how overpowered scs currently are and this is an unique feature of dominions so i think most ppl just complain because they have developed perfect strats to rush at e.g. air queens + equip them .

with my proposed upkeep this would still be true but they would have to pay something for this too .

but so the variety of dominions would greatly increase and it would be more fair .




name me 2 players who have about the same experience .
then let 1 of them play atlantis and one of them any other nation .


if anyone thinks he could win playing atlantis against any other nation against a player with about the same skill level in a standard 50% magic sites / normal research game then i will be (perhaps) quiet .


but since scs are overpowered and mainly the air queens and the ice devils are particular attractive caelum , abysia and jotunheim and vanheim are taken all very quickly in a new game always .
these nations have furthermore in common that they have lots of free extra points by scales since they have cold/heat and most of them can take sloth scale + watchtower easy too .


in starcraft i can play either zerg or toss or terra just the nation i like but i know that i have the same chance to win with every of them .

if i would like e.g. atlantis or tien chi ( base + barbarian kings ) i am forced to play them in sp only .
if i want to play them in mp it is like i voluntary handicap myself .

[Boron]

i have made so many arguments now why there should be upkeep cost for summons .

can anyone of you give me 1 conclusive argument why summons + national troops should be treated different upkeep wise or why the current upkeep system of dominions is fair ?

[archaeolept]

its boring and makes no sense to charge summons upkeep.

neither is it necessary, nor would it solve any fundamental problems, as conventionaly troops would still be as underpowered (when they are, which is usually).

cohen though is an expert

quoted for emphasis, or perhaps hilarity ;-)

I do generally agree that conventional troops lose their potency too quickly and too easily. Making SC's somewhat less efficient would be the route I would take - for instance, lowering the lifestealing effect for items/spells.

[Gandalf Parker]

Boron said:
i have made so many arguments now why there should be upkeep cost for summons .

can anyone of you give me 1 conclusive argument why summons + national troops should be treated different upkeep wise or why the current upkeep system of dominions is fair ?

Summons and national troops are different.
Much of your discussion is based on personal opinion.
As in many threads Ive seen, Illwinter made a response early on. No matter how much discussion has followed, I would consider that to be the response until you hear otherwise.
How many responses do you need?

[Arryn]

Gandalf Parker said:
As in many threads Ive seen, Illwinter made a response early on. No matter how much discussion has followed, I would consider that to be the response until you hear otherwise.
How many responses do you need?

Thank you.

[Boron]

Gandalf Parker said:

Summons and national troops are different.
Much of your discussion is based on personal opinion.
As in many threads Ive seen, Illwinter made a response early on. No matter how much discussion has followed, I would consider that to be the response until you hear otherwise.
How many responses do you need?

when johan posted i haven't posted my best / most convincing arguments myself .

and so far illwinter has fixed balance issues like the vq .

so i do my continious posting with the hope to convince johan or kristoffer that my idea is good and at least considerable for dominions 3 .

[Arryn]

Boron said:
when johan posted i haven't posted my best / most convincing arguments myself .

And you still haven't, since you've yet to effectively counter any of the Posts that various people have made explaining to you why you're mistaken in your opinions.

Boron said:
so i do my continious posting with the hope to convince johan or kristoffer that my idea is good and at least considerable for dominions 3 .

Johan has already stated that they disagree with you. All that continued posting will do is annoy them (and waste their time). The game has other, important issues to be addressed. Let them do so, and cease badgering them about something that isn't broken.

[Boron]

so far only you continue arguing against me though .

2 possible explanations :
-either all others got bored or just think i tell nonsense and gave up because they think it is impossible to convince me .

-or most start to see that my argument about upkeep is good and they see that there are no things that speak against .


probably it is explantion 1 but hope dies always Last

the closest game to dominions which is of the same genre and about the same age is age of wonders 2 shadow magic .

1 months ago i would have rated dominions clearly better than aow 2 sm . but that is perhaps because i overplayed aow 2 sm .
now i would say they are about equal . dominions is overall better but aow 2 is a bit more balanced .


this is still a big praise on johan and kristoffer . aow 2 had most likely a far bigger budget and at least 20 ppl working at it .

no matter which system is included in dominions 3 i buy it anyways 100% sure .
i just hoped to at least show that upkeep for all would have advantages too compared to the current system .


i hear almost everybody complaining that lategame is boring . perhaps this is because of the upkeep issue .


but since i like playing a game with 8-10 players most this forces you to go to a map with at least 200 provinces to have a nice game imo
with 200 provinces if i survive until lategame though it is reduced to who has a bigger gem income and who uses them better .

but since variety is always good and i know no other game with a upkeep approach as dominions i stop this now and thank illwinter once again for making one of the best games i know
that i put so much effort in my postings shows only how i concern about this game and how much i like it already.
my suggestion was still just a minor detail change imo

boron wrote

i have made so many arguments now why there should be upkeep cost for summons .

can anyone of you give me 1 conclusive argument why summons + national troops should be treated different upkeep wise or why the current upkeep system of dominions is fair ?

1. It's not a question of "fair". It's a question of achieving the overal thematic feel that the developers want, while retaining overall game balance.

2. Walking trees can't do anything with gold, so why would they want to be paid with it?

3. Powerful magics and monsters are cool. That's why mahy of us play Dominions. I don't want to play a game that's focused on national troops, because that would be too much like World War II with funny names.

4. Small changes can have massive and hard-to-predict effects. So the default position should be, IMO, that the only reason to introduce a change is to fix something that's broken. The game works. Until you can demonstrate such broken-ness based on actual MP experience, the conservatives such as myselft are not going to agree that changes should be made.

Mark