Looking for help with SC pretenders

[Kel]

The GK isn't good because it is an uber SC, like the VQ was, it is good because it is a relatively economical indy clearer, forger and site searcher.

The VQ was all of those plus a top notch SC. It is still good, it just isn't as economical anymore. I hate things that sound fanboyish but in this case, the developers really did a good job of balancing without gimping.

- Kel

[Huzurdaddi]

Some more reports:

The Virtue with a lot of air is a little better at cleaning out indeps than the ghost king. The Virtue also flies which is very handy.

However you need more research with the Virtue, you really need evoc 2 for shockwave and alteration 3 ( but you can live with 2 ). Soild choice.

or numerous others in fact.

This is what I don't get. What are these mysterious others? Are they all nation specific? The Virtue was slightly better I'll agree to that. And the wyrm was a touch better.

What else is good?

[Huzurdaddi]

Tried out a PoD with Death 9, Water 1. Scripted Quickness, Raise Skelly x4, cast.

Works out pretty well. Can even handle cav most of the time. He does lose sooner or later though.

He takes more research than the ghost king, and is not as flexable as the ghost king, but is perhaps slightly better at busting indeps.

Any other ideas?

[Yossar]

Void Lord is great against Indy's but probably needs more attack and defense to be viable against other SCs. Carrion Dragon is really good because of recuperation and sleep vines but suffers late game (like all dragons) from a lack of equipment slots. A lich/saurolich spamming raise skeleton is pretty decent.

Other than that, most of the large, high-hp pretenders can make decent SCs with the right types of magic.

[Cainehill]

Yossar said:
Carrion Dragon is really good because of recuperation and sleep vines but suffers late game (like all dragons) from a lack of equipment slots.

No it doesn't. Unlike the elemental dragons, the CD is still pretty beefy in its humanish form - 53 base hit points or so, and full equipment slots. The only real weakness is a relatively low attack / defense in carrion lord form. Helping to make up for that is the 6 carrion sleep vine attacks in addition to whatever weapon is equipped. In dragon form, it has much higher offense, and great HPs - base 200, easily getting close to 500 in favorable dominion.

[Cainehill]

Several of the best are nation specific - Allfather, Carrion Dragon, Niefel Jarl, maybe the Medusa. Others include the cyclops, several of the titan-esque pretenders, even the earth momma (albeit she is, imo, _crippled_ because of the way trampling works - same with the Dagon).

[JJ_Colorado]

Cainehill,

What do you mean that the Earth Mother is crippled by the way that trampling works? It seems really effective (trampling) in my experience.

Thanks,
John

[The_Tauren13]

I assume he is refering to the fact that giving her a hell sword or blood thorn is useless because she will trample rather than use it.

[The Panther]

Having played Dagon in my first MP game, I can say that trample fails miserably against SCs. He was fine clearing the level 9 indies, but was completely hopeless against the VQ. The VQ with the quickness and mistform never got run over. It always squirted away. Every single time. So the VQ just kept growing in HP as Dagon slowly died. Totally one-sided.

I am sure it is the same against any other SC who has quickness/flying/mistform. Trample has a pathetically low probability against these buffs. And it will never use the normal sword attack when up against a smaller opponent. Even against indies, dagon was always getting heavily fatigued while trampling. A reinvigoration artifact is an absolute must.

You simply cannot make a true SC who has the busted ability trample. Now, if there was a way to turn it off before a battle, than I would modify my opinion. Or maybe even if it was smart enough to actually do an attack rather than trying a completely hopeless trample a dozen times or more. But as it stands, trample loses to pretty much ANY other SC who is smaller in size.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

The Panther said:
I am sure it is the same against any other SC who has quickness/flying/mistform. Trample has a pathetically low probability against these buffs.

Nope, the big decider here is etherealness (although if the trampled has a lifedraining attack it's even worse). For the record, I saw an AI Dagon lose an arena dearhmatch to a Black Servant once.

Myself I learned the effectiveness of etherealness vs trampling the hard way in my first MP a few years ago, when I lost THREE Iron Dragons to a Dusk Elder and an etherealized Ghoul!

I still think trampling is great, it's just not great vs everything, so pick your targets accordingly. A trampling pretender should equip as many reinvigoration items as possible. Buying a few levels of death magic for Soul Vortex is also a good idea.