Some ideas: raiding, seiging, spell AI and more..

[Tuidjy]

Soapyfrog said:
Pardon me but it is certainly MORE fun with no hoarding. More possible strategies, less micromanagement. its a NO-BRAINER.

Pardon me, but 'cast black servant', 'forge fetish', 'forge clam', and
sticking the Last two on the former is no more micromanagement than any
other strategy requires. And please explain to me how _removing_ a
strategy opens up more strategies? Or are you one of the deluded fools
who think that any strategy is a garantee for success? Because in one
game, I'll end up facing someone who is hoarding at least clams and devils,
and most probably fetishes, judging from the fortified temple in each
province of hers. Oh, by the way, she also is second in provinces and
research, and has supercombatants, and a wished pretender. And you know
what? I do not intend to let her win the game.

But you belong to the reactionary "nothing is broken" crowd.

I belong to the intersection of the 'Win with the tools you're given'
and the 'Can't stand rebels without a clue' crowds. Or so I like to
think. Care to prove me wrong in a 1x1?

I'll bet you thought the VQ was dandy.

I thought that the VQ was a newbie friendly pretender, and possibly
underpriced. At the time, I did not consider myself good enough to be
positive. I have fielded VQs in a MP game twice. Once after the VQ nerf
was announced, to see what the big deal is, and once after the nerf, to
win the tournament's semi-final against the most vocal anti-VQ crusader.
I have not used her since, because I find her horribly overpriced.

You seem to think that Illwinter have created the perfect game, perfect in all respects, in no need of tweaking/modding whatsover.

Certainly in no need of tweaking/modding prompted by the whine-du-jour of
clueless losers.

Ah yes, truly, ignorance is bliss!

I am sure that explains why you are so happy with yourself. But I prefer
finding my own happiness in winning. Once again, care to play a game so
that we can both indulge?

[Soapyfrog]

Tuidjy said:
And please explain to me how _removing_ a
strategy opens up more strategies?

Because you will use those resources with which you MUST otherwise hoard to do other interesting things that never get done because everyone is busy hoarding.

For EXAMPLE: Soul contracts invalidate huge swathes of blood summons. Most never get used becuase it is much much much more cost effective to create soul contracts.

Or are you one of the deluded fools who think that any strategy is a garantee for success?

No of course not. It's all about what you DO with it... however hoarding is a REQUIREMENT. It is something you _MUST_ do. There is no "alternate" strategy. It doesnt improve the game, it just drowns out other possible uses for your gems/slaves. It's badly balanced.

Worse, there is exactly ZERO strategy involved in hoarding. It is simple administrative work. Tedious. But sadly neccessary.

Why not simply have all magic sites double in output every 20 turns? You would get the same effect, and not have to work for it... AND nations which are inherently bad at hoarding wouldn't take it in the teeth as much.

Certainly in no need of tweaking/modding prompted by the whine-du-jour of clueless losers.

Clearly I must fold in the face of your irrefutable logic. Touché.

[Gandalf Parker]

Soapyfrog said:

Because you will use those resources with which you MUST otherwise hoard to do other interesting things that never get done because everyone is busy hoarding.

No of course not. It's all about what you DO with it... however hoarding is a REQUIREMENT. It is something you _MUST_ do. There is no "alternate" strategy. It doesnt improve the game, it just drowns out other possible uses for your gems/slaves. It's badly balanced.

You keep saying the same thing over and over and louder and louder. Most people have moved on. I hope you dont take that to mean that you are convincing people of this "problem" you are trying to fix.

[Arryn]

Gandalf, while your point about 'frog's persistance may be true, he also raised a valid point when he said:

"Soul contracts invalidate huge swathes of blood summons. Most never get used becuase it is much much much more cost effective to create soul contracts."

Of course the same argument could be said about only summoning Bane Lords with your death gems, or Vine Ogres with nature gems (well, Fairy Queens are very nice too).

The real argument is whether a player is an optimizer (aka min-maxer), a strategist, or a RPer. Each camp vehemently expounds its views, and never will members from one camp sway those of another. Hence the perpetual bickering.

[Soapyfrog]

Arryn said:
Of course the same argument could be said about only summoning Bane Lords with your death gems, or Vine Ogres with nature gems (well, Fairy Queens are very nice too).

Yes its true there are optimal summons for all paths. however you do frequently summon other stuff too, and thats useful too... sometimes you will summon wraith lords, or demi-liches, or lamia queens. You will cast arouse hunger and ghost riders and call of the wild, etc etc. There are many useful things to put your nature and and death gems (well nature gems mostly go into fetishes if you are diligent, but still.)

The point is that while there are optimizations, they dont invalidate other strategies in the way that, say, soul contracts do. You cant compete with a soul contract in terms of regular units with any other blood summons. At least in the other arenas, the optimizations are not so blindingly obvious...

[Arryn]

Soapy, you've made your point, as Gandalf (and I) have tried to point out. Hammering away at it over and over again won't help further your cause, unless your intent is really that of trolling for someone to argue with.

Some people believe (fervently, or dare I say it, religiously) that SCs are too strong in the game, or that clams are unbalancing, or creature X is too cheap/expensive/strong/weak, or item Y is too cheap/expensive/strong/weak, or that feature Z is broken. And they are entitled to their opinions. But they are just that, opinions. Common courtesy (and common sense) asks that said pet opinions not be crammed down the throats of those who don't agree, since it's pointless and unpleasant.

[Boron]

Soapyfrog said:
The point is that while there are optimizations, they dont invalidate other strategies in the way that, say, soul contracts do. You cant compete with a soul contract in terms of regular units with any other blood summons. At least in the other arenas, the optimizations are not so blindingly obvious...

Well storm demons beat the devils . A SC beats them too etc. etc. .
So soul contract hoarding doesn't ensure you a win .

With clams etc. it is the same though not so severe :
If you only convert your water gems to clams then you don't lose too much but then it is a rather slow process .

If you convert back your gained astral pearls to speedup the clamhoarding process though then you lack them for some time and are vulnerable until you start to use them .
And there are too many factors to evaluate if your clamhoarding is good enough . If the other player intead gets 1 province more as you every 1-2 turns while you get 2-3 clams more the other player has still an advantage over you because he gets more gold , gems from sites , perhaps freespawns etc. .

I thought exactly like you do a few weeks before but i think now that hoarding is not a no-brainer .

[Soapyfrog]

Boron said:
Well storm demons beat the devils . A SC beats them too etc. etc..

I agree 1 on 1 a storm demon beats a devil. The problem is that I will have 300 devils and you will have 30 storm demons...

SC I agree you can with a LOT of effort make an SC who can tank an unlimited number of devils. However of course there are more devils where they came from (for free!!) AND of course I can use anti-SC tactics against your devil-tanking SC.

Since my devil army is endless replenishable, losing it is not a crippling blow. Your SC on the other hand, well, you will have to expend those considerable resources all over again, since the devil problem wont go away just ebcuase you killed a bunch of them.

You have to kill the source... and you cant becuase they are hidden on scouts...

[Gandalf Parker]

Arryn said:
The real argument is whether a player is an optimizer (aka min-maxer), a strategist, or a RPer. Each camp vehemently expounds its views, and never will members from one camp sway those of another. Hence the perpetual bickering.

There are also those who feel that each thing must be balanced by another thing. If they get a pawn then I should have a pawn. But the balance in this game is a level which is difficult to see. So many feel that so much is too powerful but as long as they cannot agree on what that thing is, then they balance each other out. Its difficult to see for someone who, for example, is a summoner who feels that they have found the unbeatable summons tactic. Or the armored-units person who feels that there is no balancing strength for his armored tactic. In a summoners game, or an armored game, they may be correct (even then I feel its alittle soon to have the ultimate one). But in a game where both play together they find their tactic is not such an automatic win.

[Arryn]

Gandalf Parker said:
But in a game where both play together they find their tactic is not such an automatic win.

And they become frustrated, which immediately leads them to whining on the forum. It's all so boringly, annoyingly repetitive. The gripe du jour.