MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)

[quantum_mechani]

Ok, probably won't change anything, but here is my point of view:

Storm has indeed been conducting very aggressive diplomacy in this game, and I had already been considering a war with him at some point simply due to his obnoxious attitude. When Arch offered a combined victory agreement (presumably because he was also feeling the same annoyance at the diplomacy), this was a main motivation. In addition, from the graphs, he seemed the most powerful nation and it did not seem like the war was any kind of automatic win. Apparently Storm was also not sure how good his chances were, as he waited until 3 turns into the war to decide to quit. Lastly, I do dislike late game, and thus I saw the war as way of killing 3 birds with one stone.

The bottom line is that I do not consider it unfair to ally against arguably the most powerful nation, who has also threatend my nation in the past.

A final note on WQs: I have seen both the Queen of the Deeps and The Queen of the Lake under his control at different times. As far as know, neither myself or Arch has killed one. If Mackaka killed one, my mistake.

[Stormbinder]

quantum_mechani said:
Ok, probably won't change anything, but here is my point of view:

Storm has indeed been conducting very aggressive diplomacy in this game, and I had already been considering a war with him at some point simply due to his obnoxious attitude. When Arch offered a combined victory agreement (presumably because he was also feeling the same annoyance at the diplomacy), this was a main motivation. In addition, from the graphs, he seemed the most powerful nation and it did not seem like the war was any kind of automatic win. Apparently Storm was also not sure how good his chances were, as he waited until 3 turns into the war to decide to quit. Lastly, I do dislike late game, and thus I saw the war as way of killing 3 birds with one stone.

The bottom line is that I do not consider it unfair to ally against arguably the most powerful nation, who has also threatend my nation in the past.

A final note on WQs: I have seen both the Queen of the Deeps and The Queen of the Lake under his control at different times. As far as know, neither myself or Arch has killed one. If Mackaka killed one, my mistake.

LOL. I have no idea what you saw quantum but I never had 2 WQs, only one. Always had. You can see it swiming in the sea this turn, right under your nose. Not you, not Machaka, not Marignon haven't killed any WQs of mine. The only 2nd WQ that ever existed in the game was yours. You could not possibly see 2nd WQ under my control. And in the future at least have a decency to put "I think" when you write such statements. You would look better than, trust me.




I don't know how you could feel that I was the most powerfull nation when I was trailing Mictlan in all indicatiors except small lead in gold income and province number, while I unlike him I had been engaged in the difficult war for many turns. But whatever. I did wait for 3 turns trying to see if the situation was possible to salvage, simply because I invested a lot of time in this game, so I didn't want to quit immideatly, despite you turning FFA game into "team game". But I told you and Arache what I think about your "alliance victory" option very clearly, and you know what you have replyed to me, don't you?


And this is not just my opinion, as you can see from this thread Izaques (R'leh player) feel the same. I think Marignon also would join the same sentiments, although I am not going to speak for him myself, he can do it himself if he'll decide to it.



Finally QM if you really don't understand the difference between temporarely alliance, and "alliance victory", I suggest you think again about it, before posing more of your "facts". And if you dislike endgames in Dom2 so much as you say you do, I would recommend you in the future to stay away from the games against veteran players played on medium or large maps, or if you do play them find a sub for yourself at the end, instead of spoiling the game for other players.

[quantum_mechani]

Stormbinder said:

LOL. I have no idea what you saw quantum but I never had 2 WQs, only one. Always had. You can see it swiming in the sea this turn, right under your nose. Not you, not Machaka, not Marignon haven't killed any WQs of mine. The only 2nd WQ that ever existed in the game was yours. You could not possibly see 2nd WQ under my control. And in the future at least have a decency to put "I think" when you write such statements. You would look better than, trust me.




I don't know how you could feel that I was the most powerfull nation when I was trailing Mictlan in all indicatiors except small lead in gold income and province number, while I unlike him I had been engaged in the difficult war for many turns. But whatever. I did wait for 3 turns trying to see if the situation was possible to salvage, simply because I invested a lot of time in this game, so I didn't want to quit immideatly, despite you turning FFA game into "team game". But I told you and Arache what I think about your "alliance victory" option very clearly, and you know what you have replyed to me, don't you?


And this is not just my opinion, as you can see from this thread Izaques (R'leh player) feel the same. I think Marignon also would join the same sentiments, although I am not going to speak for him myself, he can do it himself if he'll decide to it.



Finally QM if you really don't understand the difference between temporarely alliance, and "alliance victory", I suggest you think again about it, before posing more of your "facts". And if you dislike endgames in Dom2 so much as you say you do, I would recommend you in the future to stay away from the games against veteran players played on medium or large maps, or if you do play them find a sub for yourself at the end, instead of spoiling the game for other players.

To accuse _me_ of spoiling the game for other players is absurd. I never suggested quitting without finding find a sub (unlike a few other players in this game). Is a semi-alliance victory ruining it for Ry'leh/Marignon? They don't really have a realistic chance of winning at this point, and a final war like this was coming regardless of where the sides were drawn. Am I ruining it for you by having a semi-alliance victory? As I said before we would have done a temorary allience anyway, so if you situation is as hopeless as you say, you would be dead either way. That pretty much leaves you arguing that Arch and I are ruining it for ourselves, and while I appreciate you concern, I'm afraid we will just have to live with it.

The agreement with Arch was actually a 'temporary' alliance, once you were finished off, we had talked about continuing the game a little while to find out who was the supreme god of the pantheon. However, as it is my guess that he would be significantly than me stronger at that point, it is most likely we would skip the formality for micromanagement's sake.

Anyway, whether a temporary alliance or game ending one, it dosn't affect your situation at all. The thing you overlook in all your Posts is that your diplomacy brought this on yourself, indeed it might have been more tactically sound to ally with you vs. mictlan. After all the threats and general machinations though, there was no way I was going to do that.

My point about you waiting 3 turns is still valid, why would you play them if you thought you had no chance and would quit in a few turns anyway? And if you could not tell for sure that such a war would doom you, how was I to know?

I'm beginning to think that anyone other than yourself winning this game would have resulted in accusations of unfairness.

[archaeolept]

lol storm, you are the one spoiling the game by quitting in this "no quitters" game. As far as i can tell, you have not even made the littlest effort to find a sub, and would rather that the game go to hell due to your fit of pique that is really just motivated by your losing position - a position that you find yourself in purely due to your poor play, especially as to attempting diplomatic hardball w/ both me and quant.

I would recommend that you not play games against players who might beat you.

Since I've already repudiated the joint victory I had proposed to quantum, and that this joint victory was just to avoid a long and tedious endgame, you are left w/ nary a leg to stand on as to your supposed rationale for quitting. the truth is you can't bear to lose, and would rather kick up a huge sh*t storm than admit to it.

As to your math, it is attrocious as usual.

Storm posted:
Your math has nothing to do with reality.

yet you list 6 SCs. at that time I would have had 5 IDs (not counting mr. icicle fists) 5 ADs, one demon lord, and a pretender outfitted, or almost so, as SCs. As well, I would have had a king of elemental fire and father illearth way back in my lines being used as forgers (hence, SC chassis's, though not currently usable as SC's), and one sucky heliophagus used as a scout, since it seemed too dangerous to send him against PD

Let me see. that gives me 12 SC's, 14 including chassis's. How is that "10 times" the number of SC's you had (admitted to 6, not counting large numbers of mini-SC van thugs). how is 12, or even 14, this 10 times 6 storm? please explain.

more of your creative math:

As I said you were leading in *all* graphs when you offered that "alliance victory" option to qunatum, except my slight lead in provinces and gold income

this is just absurd. ignoring army size, which is basically useless (though I was ahead, it included large amounts of national troops and imps), right before the war when i made the alliance w/ Quantum you were significantly ahead in provinces and gold, tied in dominion, ahead in castles. I was only ahead of you in research and gems. This is easy enough for anyone w/ a single eye to see from the graphs. you were ahead in 3, tied in 1, and i was ahead in 3 (including army size). You are so desperate that you are reduced to pure confabulation and outright fabrication of reasons.

If you must be a baby and go home crying to mommy, pls at least find a substitute. I'm sure quantum and I would be happy to completely change the diplomatic situation w/ a different, less whiny, player.

[Cainehill]

quantum_mechani said:
Ok, probably won't change anything, but here is my point of view:

Storm has indeed been conducting very aggressive diplomacy in this game, and I had already been considering a war with him at some point simply due to his obnoxious attitude.

What? Stormwhiner, oops, sorry, it's StormQuitter isn't it, anyways, Storm being obnoxious? Say it ain't so!?!

And quitting in this manner, in a game which he (as always) called for "no quitters", is just the icing on the cake. He even says, "I could still struggle for a very long time in this game, since I have a lot of different resourses, unique artifacts and strong overall position, but such "endgame" simply does not make any sense for me."

Hey Stormie - how is this different from other people quitting when they're in a losing position, even though they could "struggle for a very long time", because it "does not make any sense" to them because it ain't fun anymore?

And putting the responsibility on other players to find a substitute for your quitting self? That's adding churlishness and childishness to blatant hypocrisy.

Yay! Three cheers for good old Saint StormBinder, people!

[Stormbinder]

ROFL.

I knew cain could not resist posting in such thread.


To quantum/archae:

Other people? What other people are you talking about, please tell?


R'leh player have told you that your "alliance victory" crap have spolied the game for him. Maltrease is very polite guy who does not like controversy, but I think he feels the same.


In case you guys haven't noticed not me, not R'leh, not Marignon are not interested in continuing this game given the way things they are. You have turned the game from FFA to "team game", with your "team" having significantly more resourses than the rest of the nations combined. There is no much point of continuing playing such game. I hope you'll be able to enjoy such "victory".


That means that nobody other than archae/quantum with their "shared victory" wants to continue this game.

But what realy cracked me up is Archae braging of him beating me, after he himself beged quantum to agree to "shared victory" option, only because he was too afraid to deal with me himself. That statement really made my day.


Amyway, enough of this pissing contest. If you'll find 2 or 3 subs silly enough to enjoy playing such "team" game against team that have much more resourses than the rest of the nations combined, go ahead and do it. Other people are asking me to give them the slot of our game if it is finished. So hurry up.

[quantum_mechani]

As much as I hate to drag this out, you still have not addressed any of the points in my post. In addition, I've heard you say in the past that diplomacy was one of (if not the most) important parts of a long term dominions game. I would say by that measure you are losing fair and square- angering the two other major nations is not a great idea diplomatically. As for Ry'leh/ Magrignon, I would be fine with breaking up the alliance and continuing the game after Vanheim is gone, if they still fell like they can affect the outcome.

As for the WQs, I was quite sure I saw 2 different ones, I'm not accusing you of lieing, it does seem unlikly that you would not remember summoning one. So, I would not at all rule out that I was mistaken.

[Stormbinder]

quantum_mechani said:
As much as I hate to drag this out, you still have not addressed any of the points in my post. In addition, I've heard you say in the past that diplomacy was one of (if not the most) important parts of a long term dominions game. I would say by that measure you are losing fair and square- angering the two other major nations is not a great idea diplomatically. As for Ry'leh/ Magrignon, I would be fine with breaking up the alliance and continuing the game after Vanheim is gone, if they still fell like they can affect the outcome.

Quantum, you have not addressed any points of *my* letter, after I addressed all points made in *your* original letter. If you think you can ignore your opponents arguments but they must reply to yours, I suggest you think again.


Of course the dimplomacy is important part of Dom2 game. But it has nothing to do with "allied victory" that archae offered to you and you accepted. That changed the nature of the game from FFA to "team game", and you know it. I never done anything like that in my games. And please stop trying to come up with things like "semi-allied victory", it is laughable. You told me yourself that Arcahe offered you "to share the victory in the game with him", and you thought it is a "nice option" that you accepted. You never intended to fight him after you would beat me. You just wanted the game to be over as soon as you can. Well, you got you wish. Enjoy it if you can.

Oh, and you have de-facto directly accursed me of lieing, with your insistance that you have seen 2 WQ under my control, which you have even named. Just after I specificaly told that I don't have two WQs, never had, and haven't even resummoned the one I have, since it was never killed by you or anybody else. How about adressing *this* point for a change, huh?

[archaeolept]

storm, why won't you address the fact that me and quantum have abandoned any suggestion of an allied victory, since it seems to have blown a fuse in your brain?

there is no allied victory. deal w/ it.

unless your problem is that there exists any alliance against you (which I am pretty sure is your real beef). however, I really don't think military alliances are against the rules of this game

[quantum_mechani]

Stormbinder said:

You never intended to fight him after you would beat me. You just wanted the game to be over as soon as you can.

Well, thanks for telling me what I'm thinking. The truth is that me and Arch had talked about it from the start (we never decided either way), and I am willing to continue the game afterward, especially if Ry'leh and Marignon are still having fun with it.

Let me boil it down:

You feel Arch and I are being unfair, not by allying, but by keeping the alliance after you are gone, correct?

The ending the game part was always optional and conditioal on the feelings of all remaining players.

Anyway, if everything is as hopeless as you say, your empire would be gone by then. So it really has no impact on you other than a nice way to lose but be able to say "I only lost due to unfair tactics".