Did God Invent Us, Or Did We Invent Him

[Will]

Pretty much the same thing as Kamog. I believed as a kid, just because that's what all the adults told me to believe. Then I realized there wasn't really anything that was supporting the belief other than the Bible (and that's rather dubious, circular support at that) and "intuitions". And for me, when I examined my intuitions, I came across the puzzling question "If God created us, who created God?". The only answer I've really ever seen for this boils down to "God was always here". But then, it seems to me, the entire objection that theists have to a more scientific worldview (eg. Big Bang, self-organizing chemical reactions which we like to call "life" , etc.) -- mainly that the question of where everything came from stops before Big Bang -- still holds with the theist worldview. In other words, "What was there before the Big Bang?" is the direct analogue to "What created God?". So, it seems to me, anyone who is attempting to be rational and accepting scientific theories of origins, and then puts forth the answer of "God" as what came before the Big Bang, is really just adding a layer and replacing one unanswerable with another unanswerable.

And really, whenever you speculate about the past that far back in time, it really is nothing more than idle speculation with very no real direct evidence, and only some indirect and theoretical evidence supporting it. IIRC, the only evidence that science currently has for the Big Bang is the "static" of background radiation that fits the theoretical models given. It's already been established time and again that there is no way to prove either position, it just depends on the personality of each individual.

[Atrocities]

If we invented God, then who invented us?

[Will]

Atrocities said:
If we invented God, then who invented us?

In my view, the more pertinent question is why do we think humans were "invented"?

[Azselendor]

My parents brought me up with the option to choose what religion I wanted or if I wanted none at all. I chose none at all, religion just didn't make sense to me.

[Gandalf Parker]

Klvino [ORB] said:
My parents brought me up with the option to choose what religion I wanted or if I wanted none at all. I chose none at all, religion just didn't make sense to me.

I totally agree with what you said (although it might not be what you meant). Personally Im a very religious person but I find that religion gets in the way of being religious.

[Atrocities]

Will said:

In my view, the more pertinent question is why do we think humans were "invented"?

My response to this would, because we have nothing to go on except the belief that we either evolved from pond scum, or were engineered. I believe that both are valid, or that even combined they are more valid. We are engineered pond scum, or better yet, an engineered virus that kills planets.

[Azselendor]

By saying we evolved from pond scum is simply an overly simplified way of refering to the process of Evolution. Understand, Evolution has no direct purpose except to make use of energy in the most efficient way. What put humans ahead of our other cousins is that we managed to develop a means to plan ahead for the long term. Not one or two seasons, but three or four years and reason out problems that arise.

I do believe our origins tie back to simple ocean dwelling microbes and that via natural competition with other species, we evolved from that and obtained a wholely original place in nature.

Now, the thing about religion and me is choice. religion just didn't make sense to me because it didn't allow me the choices I wanted to make. It is a great foundation for morality and an excellent collection of ethics. Some of my own are drawn from the Bible, the Vedas, Classical Civilization, Native American mythos, and such.

Take the sacrifice of Jesus. It's about one man, willing to die for his belief that humanity can be better than what it was and that his death will wipe earth clean of sin. Go over to India, the God Shiva consumed the sins of the world in his effort to save it - almost killing himself (it's why shive wears a snake around his neck). Both are great tales of self-sacrifice and hope for humanity's better nature.

But I wandered off topic.

I think we occured naturally, not as a fluke or enginneered. Life itself happens where ever it can take root, only the conditions determine how far that goes and what form it takes.

[Kamog]

I once read in a book the following argument: Out of the three statements below, only two of them can be true:
(1) God is all powerful
(2) God is all good
(3) Terrible things happen

If God knows that there is evil but cannot prevent it, he is not all-powerful. If he doesn't know that there's evil, he's not omnisicent. If he knows that there is evil but does not wish to prevent it, then he is not all good.

The only possible way that all three can be true, is if God knows there is evil in the world but chooses not to stop it for reasons that are beyond our understanding.

[Mephisto]

Mmm, I can think of 2 explanations for terrible things to happen out of my box:

a) It is for a greater good not (yet) seen by us.

b) Free will. The Christian believe is that man was created in the image of good. Man has the ability of free will and choice. He choose to do good or evil, belive or not believe to create or destroy. Hence good can be good and all powerful but choose to give us free will so that evil not by his doing is possible.

[Will]

Atrocities said:My response to this would, because we have nothing to go on except the belief that we either evolved from pond scum, or were engineered. I believe that both are valid, or that even combined they are more valid. We are engineered pond scum, or better yet, an engineered virus that kills planets.

(boldness mine) AT... have you been watching The Matrix again?

Just curious, are you taking the (God >= Universe) position here, or something else? If it is the former, is it of the "more than" or "same as" variety?