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View Poll Results: Do you prefer to know the formulas which determine what happens in a game, or do you prefer not to k
I strongly prefer to know the formulas. 20 40.82%
I somewhat prefer to know the formulas. 18 36.73%
I don't have a specific preference. 2 4.08%
I sort of prefer not to know the exact formulas. 6 12.24%
I strongly prefer not to know the exact formulas. 3 6.12%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old December 18th, 2004, 03:03 AM
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Default Re: (OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

Quote:
deccan said:
I voted with the majority (and I voted in the one you made in the Dom2 board too), but I think the exception is if the ambiguity is part of the game design. I think that MOO3's original idea of Imperial Focus Points was quite cool, but it would have been a good rationale to prevent the player from knowing the exact details of some things unless he spent resources to know them.
As long as the game lets you know the details of the ambiguity.

Don't say "DUC: does about 50 damage", when you could say "DUC: does 40-55 damage" (with linear/gaussian/etc probability curve)

-----

Focus points...
So many ways for that to go wrong.

You need to have both competent AIs, and AIs that can take orders without going insane.
You need to let them remember a priority list of your orders, and have them ask for clarification when things conflict.
And perhaps most importantly they need to be able to justify their actions to the player, and then adjust their priorities and values based on what the player orders.

Perhaps the focus points really should be used in a different way...
let the player adjust the sliders and generic orders all he wants: "Tell the governor of Arcturus that my flagship had better be done this month, or he'll be drinking his beer from the bottom of the lava mine on Hades II"

Instead, use the points for bringing in ministers for a personal tribute/talking-to/torture session. IE: give your AI's priorities and values a direct tweak so they will do better next time

You also need to let the player remain in control of everything... If they player orders something specific, it must remain that way.
If the AI wants to change something that the player did, they need to ask/beg first. And SAY WHY. If the player says no, then the AI had better increase its percieved value of leaving the setting as is. Ask again only if it is really important, and redouble the threshold every time the user says no.

-----

The question of Why would make a huge difference:
Consider if you had personally ordered a training facility built in a chokepoint system to help boost the troops as they arrived.

"Governor Joe wants permission to scrap your training facility at Algaran I"
Heck, no! I built that for a reason, dummy!
...(Two Months Later)...
"Governor Joe REALLY wants permission to scrap your training facility at Algaran I"
What? You again!? Grr, now I've gotta go and look at everything to see what's got you so upset. 50 lashes for wasting my time!

-or-

"Governor Joe wants to scrap your training facility at Algaran I because a higher-level training facility is under construction (2 months) near the resupply depot on Algaran II (Y/N)".
Ah, excellent work. Have a cookie!

Note that this isn't going to be easy.
The AI has to pick out just the new and/or major influencing factors in its decision, and decide which of those to present to the player in a sentence or two.
And you can't just try to maximize the number of "yes" responses. The minion needs to mention the big negative influences too, or it will be seen as manipulative and untrustworthy. A fair and balanced summary of why in a sentence or two is very hard.
Allowing a small chart/graphic/icon-map might help.

Hmm, this seems to have wandered really far off-topic.
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  #2  
Old December 18th, 2004, 06:24 AM

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Default Re: (OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

Quote:
Suicide Junkie said:
Focus points...
So many ways for that to go wrong.

Sure, and it wouldn't be for a pure strategy game of course, rather more like a new kind of strategy + RPG hybrid, in which governors et al. have "personalities" which determine how they behave as so forth.

Bruce Geryk's essay Master of Orion 3 rebuttal really says what I think on the subject.
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  #3  
Old December 18th, 2004, 06:49 AM

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Default Re: (OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

I think exact values and formulas should be a research item in itself. when people made handguns at first they knew they could kill people, when people make handguns now, they know the approximate speed at which the bullet leaves the gun, how much of an impact force it has, and how much it'll travel in distance.

Also the formulas are like the formulas of physics. hence I'd keep the formulas hidden until you have researched physics.

Offcourse in the game you could write them down once you had them researched and never need em again. you could prevent this by making a semirandom universial constant. say, gravity is 9.8 m/s² today on earth, and another game its 11,4 m/s² slight differences, which still make it realistic, but make your previously noted formulas off by quite a margein.

Would be great imho, would also make the theorethical sciences more than just tools to unlock the others.

Because the exact knowledge of the formulas gives you a more detailed view of the game and helps you to build better designs, i think it's something you should earn and spend resources on.
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  #4  
Old December 18th, 2004, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: (OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

I prefere to explore (myself, or along with community) a _good_ game for its underlying mechanism (like formulas, algorithms), rather than to read this kind of info from manual. It reminds research work and it has an indisputable virtue - pleasure of gaining new knowledge.
Of course if game is bad, I have no interest in such research.
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  #5  
Old December 18th, 2004, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: (OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

Quote:
deccan said:
Quote:
Suicide Junkie said:
Focus points...
So many ways for that to go wrong.

Sure, and it wouldn't be for a pure strategy game of course, rather more like a new kind of strategy + RPG hybrid, in which governors et al. have "personalities" which determine how they behave as so forth.

Bruce Geryk's essay Master of Orion 3 rebuttal really says what I think on the subject.
That is what MOO3 was supposed to be... 5X, with the 5th X being "experience." Of course, due to the usual corporate marketing snafus, the game concept was trashed to hell before it was ever released...
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  #6  
Old December 18th, 2004, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: (OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

SJ said:

The question of Why would make a huge difference:
Consider if you had personally ordered a training facility built in a chokepoint system to help boost the troops as they arrived.

"Governor Joe wants permission to scrap your training facility at Algaran I"
Heck, no! I built that for a reason, dummy!
...(Two Months Later)...
"Governor Joe REALLY wants permission to scrap your training facility at Algaran I"
What? You again!? Grr, now I've gotta go and look at everything to see what's got you so upset. 50 lashes for wasting my time!

-or-

"Governor Joe wants to scrap your training facility at Algaran I because a higher-level training facility is under construction (2 months) near the resupply depot on Algaran II (Y/N)".
Ah, excellent work. Have a cookie!


Hahahaha!!!! Great stuff SJ! Almost fell from my chair. Hahahaha!!!! LOL!!!!
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  #7  
Old December 18th, 2004, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: (OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

Although I voted for knowing exact values, I voted for this game only. I believe that this is consistent with the flavor of how I would want to play this game.

I could envision another game where I would want vagueness if it is consistent with the flavor of that game. A good example are First Person Shooters (which I play occasionally). I really don't want to know exactly how many hitpoints the various baddies have nor how much damage the Rocket Launcher delivers with a direct hit and/or splash damage. I'd much rather figure out by playing that some guys will be blown to smithereens with one hit and other bad guys are best dealt with by increasing the distance between them and my high-tailing rear end.

Bottom line for me is that it matters on the kind of game.
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  #8  
Old December 19th, 2004, 02:05 AM

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Default Re: (OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

Well no, you don't. But there are numbers in FPS. For example, you don't know exactly how much damage a rocket launcher will do, but you know a rocket launcher in the face will kill them. So, in a FPS, there is an incredibly simplified style of playing. This is different for different games of course, especially with more modern games that have hitboxes where shooting them in the head does more damage than in the foot. But generally, you know that a sniper rifle hit to the head will kill, you know that six pistol shots will kill somebody, etc. Its just not quantified, but qualified when you see the person hit the deck =D.

Brian
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Old December 20th, 2004, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: (OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

I'll agree with Slick about the character of the game determining whether I give a fig about formulas. To be honest, I have calculated stuff a handful of times in SE IV, gotten the wrong answer and then determined that I was doing the math wrong, not the machine adding mysterious modifiers. Talk about embarassing.
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Old December 20th, 2004, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: (OT) Do you prefer to know game formulas?

I do not need the exact formula or some complex damage table.

However I would like more complete discriptions of how some things work together.

For example, we are told that the Phase Polaron Beam goes through regular shields. The phase shield will stop the Phase polaron beam.
But we are not told how the phased shield works verses regular beams.
It seems logical that it would work better than a regular shield but how to tell?
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