OT: Words fail me

[Hunpecked]

Alarikf and Rasorow seem to be confusing fantasy and reality here. As Dogscoff illustrated in his roundabout way, even with a game as "violent" as Space Empires, where entire "star systems" are ravaged and literally billions of "intelligent beings" are "killed" or "enslaved", NO ONE is actually harmed (aside from voluntary sleep deprivation, perhaps ). When the "emperor" gets up from his/her computer, yawns, and crawls into bed, lo and behold: the universe remains as it was. Birds still sing, the planets remain in their orbits, and billions of "dead" people go about their daily business, oblivious.

Now from what I've read of this "Pimp" game, it's pretty much the same. The "pimp" makes "money" by playing certain cards to "abuse", "exploit", and "addict" certain game objects called "women". When the game is over, however, the player (or "pimp") has no more of the real-world commodity we call "money" than he (or she) started with (and probably less, having paid some to the game's manufacturer), he doesn't drive a real-world "pimpmobile" (unless he already had one), and he hasn't done the slightest microscopic iota of harm to any real-world creatures we call "women".

Now let's examine the game "outrage". In this game real people see a real fantasy product (game, movie, novel, rap album, whatever) that "exploits" some real-world "problem", and decide that it "offends" them. They decide to try and stop this product's production and/or distribution. They join like-minded players, express their "outrage" to news media, politicians, and fellow citizens, and organize petitions and so on, in their attempt to "stop" the product.

Sometimes the players succeed in their "quest", sometimes they fail, but players usually "win" the "outrage" game anyway in the sense that they feel they've "done something" about the real-world problem in question. They haven't of course, because the "outrage" game is as much a fantasy as "space Empires" and "Pimp".

[geoschmo]

Hey Hunpecked, you might be onto something there. You should work up a protoype for your new game there and suggest it to Shrapnel, they might want to sell it.

[AMF]

Wrong.

There is a *very* real difference in the two cases you describe. There are no space faring races in our lives. There are no billions of inteeligent beings being enslaved by alien empires. These are not, at all, analogous to events or people or places in our own reality.

Now, if you had a game that was "How many Hutus can you kill?" or "How many Serbs can you Rape?" then, yea, we're talking similar things.

This is analogous to the game "how many women can you rape" "How many women can you pimp out"

When I play SE4, I play with certain game objects called "planets" and "starships" and "planetary populations"

When I play this pimp game, I play with certain game objects called "women".
(That last noun clause is quoted from your post, BTW)

This is the fundamental, crucial difference. And it is especially so becuase pre-teens play this game.

I'll stop there but say lastly that for what it's worth, I am not entirely convinced that this game in question is problematic - ALL I am talking about is the existence, or non-existence, of some "line" that is theoretically crossable or not. Is there such a line? That's all I'm asking.

Is there such a line? If so, where? If not, is this a good thing?

Alarik

Hunpecked said:
Alarikf and Rasorow seem to be confusing fantasy and reality here. As Dogscoff illustrated in his roundabout way, even with a game as "violent" as Space Empires, where entire "star systems" are ravaged and literally billions of "intelligent beings" are "killed" or "enslaved", NO ONE is actually harmed (aside from voluntary sleep deprivation, perhaps ). When the "emperor" gets up from his/her computer, yawns, and crawls into bed, lo and behold: the universe remains as it was. Birds still sing, the planets remain in their orbits, and billions of "dead" people go about their daily business, oblivious.

Now from what I've read of this "Pimp" game, it's pretty much the same. The "pimp" makes "money" by playing certain cards to "abuse", "exploit", and "addict" certain game objects called "women". When the game is over, however, the player (or "pimp") has no more of the real-world commodity we call "money" than he (or she) started with (and probably less, having paid some to the game's manufacturer), he doesn't drive a real-world "pimpmobile" (unless he already had one), and he hasn't done the slightest microscopic iota of harm to any real-world creatures we call "women".

Actually, one last question: why don't we hear from the majority of the earth's population and see what they think about it. Any women reading this? Hunpecked, you married or have a GF? Ask them what they think. I can't speak for them. Maybe I am too uptight.

[Raging Deadstar]

Blinks

Reads the Posted Links

Oh, It's White Wolf....Can't say I'm suprised

[Hunpecked]

Alarikf writes:

>> These are not, at all, analogous to events or people or places in our own reality.

[shrug] OK. Forget "Space Empires". How about "Grand Theft Auto"? Are any real-world vehicles stolen? Any real-world police killed? Any real car wrecks, blood, or money?

>> "How many Hutus can you kill?"

I haven't played the game, but I'll bet it doesn't let me kill any real-life people whatsoever.

>> When I play this pimp game, I play with certain game objects called "women".

Yes, and these "women" are EXACTLY as real (or unreal) as the "Planets" in SEIV.

>> This is the fundamental, crucial difference.

Um, there is no difference. Both are unreal game objects with familiar names. It's kind of like naming a chess piece a "king", even though it has no resemblance to one.

>> And it is especially so becuase pre-teens play this game.

I assume pre-teens could get their hands on this game, just as they can "Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell" and "Combat Mission" and "Grand Theft Auto". So?

>> Hunpecked, you married or have a GF? Ask them what they think.

If I ever listened to my SO, I wouldn't be a game player now, would I?

Seriously, if she showed any interest at all she'd roll her eyes and say if I buy the game then she can buy [insert trinket here] for herself. She has no sympathy for women as "victims".

[AMF]

Hunpecked said:
Seriously, if she showed any interest at all she'd roll her eyes and say if I buy the game then she can buy [insert trinket here] for herself. She has no sympathy for women as "victims".

Ok, drop the games analogy and think about hard core porn? Good for society? Bad for society?

I would never advocate censorship...but in the case of child pornography, well, I think maybe I would.

All I am saying is that it is patently naive to think that a proliferation of games that degrade or humiliate a segment of the population has NO effect on that population.

I mean, come on, do you REALLY beleive that it doesn't matter AT ALL that the vast majority of surfing is porn? Or that GTA is the highest selling game (IIRC)? Does it REALLY matter ZERO?

If that is the case, then does it still matter zero if we constantly show hard core porn or rape on public TV? Or cable, if you think that's more appropriate?

Like I said, I would march for all of these rights for everybody. I am an extreme foe of censorship. But I also an extreme foe of knee jerk naivete in the name of some political beleif. Sure, this is all about the first amendment - but that's NOT what I've been talking about.

Ah, nevermind. I guess I'm not making myself clear - and I'm tired of trying.

[Grandpa Kim]

Posted by Alarikf:

But I am pretty sure that there must exist *some* line of common decency,

On that I can't agree; at best there is an average. Having found myself part of the outcast, disenfranchised minority more often than not, I strongly resist any such line.

Like Atrocities, I am a strong believer in freedom. Anything that erodes our freedom is bad! If this degree of freedom should be our downfall, then perhaps our species is not the hot sh** we think it is. Personally I think we are that hot, if not impeded by too many rules and laws. Let freedom be the judge.

(Jeez, I sound like a preacher! )

[Hunpecked]

alarikf writes:

>> Ok, drop the games analogy and think about hard core porn?

OK, I'll bite. Here are a couple points off the top of my head:

Good for society

(1) Satisfies a large market demand
(2) Most porn workers earn more than they would in other jobs and so pay more taxes

Bad for society

(3) Some porn workers get in over their heads (look up "Colleen Applegate" on Google)

I'm not sure what the point of this exercise is. Name any industry and you can probably come up with both pros and cons.

>> Does it REALLY matter ZERO?

Um, again I'm missing the point. I can't think of any industry that has ZERO effect on us.

>> I would never advocate censorship...but

Self-contradicting. Either "never" has to go, or "but" has to.

>> Ah, nevermind. I guess I'm not making myself clear - and I'm tired of trying.

Probably just as well. This business about ZERO effect on society is no basis for real-world policies. It makes as much sense as a "zero tolerance" drug policy that bans Tylenol in schools.

[Suicide Junkie]

Does it have anything to do with generic vs specific?

Eg:
Nuking the Purple Team's base to glass ...vs... Nuking the Pentagon to glass.
Mowing down generic pedestrians ...vs... Mowing down stereotypical Canadians.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

The thing that drove me to protest was not that it was a game about pimps - it was that it was a game about pimps that attempted to turn prostitution into a joke.

Space Empires doesn't turn the murder of planetary populations into a joke. If it did, I wouldn't play it. It's true it can be played that way, but that's a matter of personal use.

And quite frankly, I consider military strategy and political options benificial things to learn (So long as you don't actually start acting like a dictator)

The petition isn't trying to make the game illegal; it's simply expressing societical displeasure at something everybody who signs it finds disgusting.