America the Police State

Baron Munchausen · #1 February 9th, 2005, 07:12 PM

Well, getting back to the original topic of this thread:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00418:

A Bill to establish mandatory national ID has been brought up for debate TODAY. As usual, it claims to be an 'anti-terrorism' measure and focuses on immigrants and resident aliens, but it covers all state driver's licenses including those of citizens. By forcing all states to standardize their driver's licenses and giving the data to the federal government this bill will create the centralized national ID system that has so-far been defeated when brought up explicitly. Since the Supreme Court has ruled that police have the right to demand ID any time they choose, this will put the entire population of the country under arbitrary surveillance.

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http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm

Gun Owners of America
8001 Forbes Place Suite 102
Springfield VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408

Wednesday, February 9, 2005

The National ID card is back in the news, as Congress is getting set once again to debate the issue.

You will remember that late last year, Congress passed (and the President signed) legislation which starts us down the road to a National ID card. In the name of preventing alien terrorists from operating in this country, the so-called Intelligence Reform bill gave federal bureaucrats unprecedented new powers to force changes in state-issued driver's licenses -- including, possibly, the addition of computer chip technology that can facilitate the tracking of all U.S. citizens.

Now, the House will be debating new legislation, H.R. 418, that was recently introduced by Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI). In considering this bill, the U.S. House will vote on whether to empower the federal government to determine who can get a driver's license -- and under what conditions.

Since you need a driver's license to purchase a gun from a dealer, this will give BATF the expanded ability to impose even greater forms of gun control -- something which it has long coveted. This will become even more apparent if an anti-gun Democrat like Hillary Clinton wins the presidency in 2008.

H.R. 418 is, unfortunately, supported by many Republicans who believe that repealing our liberties will somehow make us "secure." But GOA joined a large coalition of citizen-activist organizations this week in opposition to H.R. 418. In a letter to Congress, the coalition stated:

"Standardization of driver's licenses has long been recognized as a bureaucratic back-door to implementation of a national ID card. With its required linking of databases and ability of the Secretary of Homeland Security to require a prescribed format, HR 418 takes us well along that road. Concerns are further heightened when the bill fails to even provide lip service to privacy concerns, and proposes to share all of our data on the driver's license database with Canada and Mexico."

Realizing government's tendency towards mission creep, no one should be surprised if this database grows to contain far more information than that which is relevant to driving. HR 418 requires that the database shall contain "at a minimum," all information contained on the driver's license as well as driving history. There is no limit to what other information may eventually be contained in the database -- something which should definitely concern gun owners.

H.R. 418 is being touted as a way of cleaning up some of the problems with the law that was enacted last December. But this bill is still an attack on states' rights. It still takes us down the road to a National ID card. And it would still do nothing to keep real terrorists from operating in our country.

ACTION: Please contact your Representative and urge him or her to oppose H.R. 418. You can use the Take Action Now feature to send a pre-written message.

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Subject: BORDC Action Alert: House to vote on REAL ID Act this week
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:09:57 -0500
From: Bill of Rights Defense Committee <newsletter@bordc.org>
To: <newsletter@bordc.org>

Dear Friends:

The House of Representatives is scheduled to take up Rep. Sensenbrenner's REAL ID Act (H.R. 418) next WEDNESDAY, with a vote likely THURSDAY, FEB. 10. Sending refugees who have fled torture, rape, and other brutal human rights abusers back to their tormenters and deporting long-term residents for charity contributions they made long ago will not make Americans safer from terrorism. Yet sections of H.R. 418 would do just that. To avoid debate over the bill's controversial provisions, the sponsor plans to attach his bill to a fast-approaching "must pass" bill, such as the the Iraqi supplemental spending bill or the relief bill for tsunami victims.

Summaries of a few troubling sections and a sample phone script follow. Here are links for more information:

* Bill text, list of cosponsors, and status:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquer...:@@@L&summ2=m&
* Contact information for your representative:
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/
* Good analysis of the bill by the American Immigration Lawyers Association:
http://www.aila.org/contentViewer.aspx?bc=10,911,5516,8191
* Human Rights First web page where you can send your
representative an instant message:
http://action.humanrightsfirst.org/c...=ga_adv_realid

Summary: You may recognize parts of H.R. 418 as the most troubling sections of H.R. 10, which the conference committee for the Intelligence Reform bills rejected as too extreme, unrelated to intelligence or anti-terrorism, and in conflict with the 9/11 Commission's recommendations. Among the sections of most concern are:

* Section 101, which enables a judge to deny a refugee asylum if she is unable to track down specific documents that corroborate her claims--even if the U.S. State Department confirms that the country from which the refugee has fled never provides the documents--and bars other judges from reversing their determinations because the corroborating evidence is not available.
* Sections 103 and 104 would permit long-term legal U.S. residents to be deported for having given contributions years ago to organizations that later fit the Bush administration's profile of a terrorist organization, even if they are not on a list of named terrorist organizations.

Sample Phone Script: Please contact your Representative by phone and explain why you oppose some of the bill's provisions. For example,

"I urge you to oppose H.R. 418's provisions that will make it much harder for legitimate refugees to gain asylum and place them at greater risk of being deported back into the hands of their persecutors."

Bill of Rights Defense Committee
Web: www.bordc.org
Email: info@bordc.org
Phone: 413-582-0110
Fax: 413-582-0116

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Phoenix-D · #2 February 9th, 2005, 10:40 PM

heh.

They missed the most 'interesting' part of HR 418, I think. This was brought up elsewhere in a different context..somehow I'm a little leery of letting an appointed cabinet official waive any laws he wants.

The context is 'limited' but can quite easily be stretched to include a lot more than it would seem at first glance.

SEC. 102. WAIVER OF LAWS NECESSARY FOR IMPROVEMENT OF BARRIERS AT BORDERS.

Section 102(c) of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (8 U.S.C. 1103 note) is amended to read as follows:

`(c) Waiver-

`(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall have the authority to waive, and shall waive, all laws such Secretary, in such Secretary's sole discretion, determines necessary to ensure expeditious construction of the barriers and roads under this section.

`(2) NO JUDICIAL REVIEW- Notwithstanding any other provision of law (statutory or nonstatutory), no court shall have jurisdiction--

`(A) to hear any cause or claim arising from any action undertaken, or any decision made, by the Secretary of Homeland Security pursuant to paragraph (1); or

`(B) to order compensatory, declaratory, injunctive, equitable, or any other relief for damage alleged to arise from any such action or decision.'.

Gozra · #3 February 11th, 2005, 04:01 PM

Well the march to an American Police state continues...

Congress is on the verge of backdooring a national ID card in the name of stopping Mexicans and terriorst from driving or getting welfare here in the US. And in the process placing these small silver coated chaines around every US driving citizen.
Also a Taser Killed a man which goes along with Titor saying watch out for non-leathal weapons. The news today indicates a direction that there is unrest in the general population of the US. And if we weaken then the world is ready to explod in regional tensions notice N Korea claiming nuclear status and Japan making territorial claims against China.
I can really see a police state coming if some misguided americans start riots or anti-war protests and a crack down on security by the Government.
By the way I have been watching the news closely in the Context of the Titor stuff and I am concerned.

sachmo · #4 February 11th, 2005, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Gozra said:
Well the march to an American Police state continues...

Congress is on the verge of backdooring a national ID card in the name of stopping Mexicans and terriorst from driving or getting welfare here in the US. And in the process placing these small silver coated chaines around every US driving citizen.
Also a Taser Killed a man which goes along with Titor saying watch out for non-leathal weapons. The news today indicates a direction that there is unrest in the general population of the US. And if we weaken then the world is ready to explod in regional tensions notice N Korea claiming nuclear status and Japan making territorial claims against China.
I can really see a police state coming if some misguided americans start riots or anti-war protests and a crack down on security by the Government.
By the way I have been watching the news closely in the Context of the Titor stuff and I am concerned.

Fun is fun, but you probably shouldn't worry so much. Stress can lead to all sorts of nasty ailments, one of which is believing you can travel back in time.

EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro · #5 February 11th, 2005, 10:00 PM

Sorry to step back on the crazy train momentarily. I just noticed that the Nuke attack in 2012 is also when the Mayan Calender ends. -cue ominous music-

And 100 years after that is when the time travelling Rush album (on vinyl) is made. -cue "Temples of Syrinx"-

It's good that this many people are weary of what steps are being taken in our best interest. I'd stop at the national I.D. card. Anything beyond that though I'd keep a look out for that scary White Train that will roll into your hometown and process all "enemies of the state" No need to go all Turner Diaries yet folks.

Baron Munchausen · #6 February 12th, 2005, 12:54 AM

No, the nuclear war takes place in 2015 according to Titor. The civil war in the US sputters on from 2008 to that date and then the 'rebels' survive the nuclear exchange better than the Feds and clean up the remnants of the government forces.

The big question is, exactly what events will be an 'exact' enough match to the Titor predictions to show a valid prediction with more than common knowledge vs. a hoaxer simply seeing the trend like many other people did. The growing divide in US society has been apparent since at least the Reagan years after all. And the Waco debacle jump-started the militia movement almost a decade before 'Titor' appeared.

Gozra · #7 February 14th, 2005, 12:34 PM

I don't stress over too much. However I think it makes for an interesting discussion. I can see signs of unrest with Old fogies like this Churchhill Fellow in Colorado and young dumb bored students getting something started with the Federal government. Well this Titor fellow has got me thinking. What would the begining of a Civil war look like Could you or anyone recoginize if one was starting? I contend that few people could recognize what the trends were. That most people would be on the side of it can't happen here or it does not matter to me. With the enviroment going through some changes, mass media with horrible stories commonplace, The rise of non-leathal weapons, Cracks showing in the Republican party, The Federal Government grabbing for more and more power, with liberals getting more and more hysterical and out of touch with reality, with republicans pushing toward security, Well it all makes me wonder am I seeing a change in America and I just don't know what I am seeing? Or are there great things just around the corner? I am excited about the thought of a space eleavator, cure for diabeties, quantum computers, fusion energy, and better health for all.
And SEV sometime this year.

sachmo · #8 February 14th, 2005, 01:08 PM

A civil war in america will never happen again for one reason...you can't get enough Americans to care about something enough that they would be willing to SACRIFICE for it.

All of these signs you are seeing might be more your perception of the state of the world ("when I was young") then a reflection of reality.
I see the current state of public opinion as the conservative backlash to the rise of PC and liberalism. Just like the economy, this too will self correct. Eventually, it's possible that one side will imbalance the system, but I can't see a civil war as the ultimate solution to governmental problems. The citizens have too much power. They just need to use it.

geoschmo · #9 February 14th, 2005, 01:38 PM

I wouldn't say never Sachmo, but certinaly not in anything like the next decade. It would take maybe a generation growing up under some pretty heavy oppression I would think. Our current population is too soft and passive. Unless there is some sort of collapse of our exsisting systems due to a plague, massive climate change or running out of oil or something. But that's not something Titor mentions I don't believe. I haven't read all his stuff. Not sure whether a food riot would be classified as a true civil war.

Gozra · #10 February 14th, 2005, 03:27 PM

[quote]
sachmo said:
A civil war in america will never happen again for one reason...you can't get enough Americans to care about something enough that they would be willing to SACRIFICE for it.

How do you justify this staement? (bear in mind I want you to be right in ths assertion)

Current an past american history would refute your statement.
try the 10% rule if 30 million americans oppose their government and assume 3 million really want to do something about it
and of those 3 million 300,000 are competent to do anything about it well the federal government has some problems. I see signs that the white house knows we have severe problems but are unwilling or unable to take care of them.
Right now the War in Iraq is reducing our Military's ablity to do it's job. Veterans from the Iraq war are showing up in Homeless shelters in increasing numbers. The liberal's are frothing at the mouth that the Republicans have taken so much of their base power away. The Governors race in Washington state is still undecided. Coporate America is about to get it's payback for political support of the current administration. People are still losing jobs as our economy retools for this century. And the current adminstration is turning back the environmental clock. I think people will be getting plenty to get mad about and this summer will prove to be hot and weird as it may sound hot can mean riots. With the new laws of the patirot act well abuse of those laws might be tolerated until it is too late. I hope that this Titor fellow is just a very clever Hoaxer but it would be prudent to have an informed discussion and think through things.