The Vine Ogre

[Graeme Dice]

BigDaddy said:You mean with out getting any Ivy Kings .

Ivy Kings aren't exactly early game.

I think you could increase the Ivy King price to 30 nature gems, and decrease their summoning bonus to +2 and they would STILL be a good cast. Anyone disagree?

I do. To get any benefit out of an ivy king opposed to a vine crown on two mages, you'll have to have the ivy king cast for 15 turns.

[Oversway]

Why not mod vine orges to cost more, and see if any one still uses them and/or if it makes the game more fun?

[NTJedi]

Raising the price of vine-ogres could get some upset. It would be more friendly to drop the gem price of other cheap summons like the salamander, cave drake, wyvern, ice drake, etc... . I never summon these since they just are not worth the price.
Another idea would be making these disliked summons have more life and better stats.

Exactly NT Jedi!

Somewhere near the top of the thread it was suggested that Vine Ogres were clearly too cheap because everyone used them, and no-one uses the other early game summons.

So naturely the proposal is to nerf them, thus presumably ensuring that nobody uses Vine Ogres either.

If no-one tends to use any of the other early game summons - even those without easy access to Vine Ogres - then surely it's those other summons that are the problem. The answer doesn't have to be making them cheaper either - maybe better, or more interesting in some way.

And while VOs are a good deal, I haven't seen anyone dominate a game with them. They're still cannon-fodder.

[tinkthank]

Mark the Merciful said:
Exactly NT Jedi!

Somewhere near the top of the thread it was suggested that Vine Ogres were clearly too cheap because everyone used them, and no-one uses the other early game summons.

So naturely the proposal is to nerf them, thus presumably ensuring that nobody uses Vine Ogres either.

If no-one tends to use any of the other early game summons - even those without easy access to Vine Ogres - then surely it's those other summons that are the problem. The answer doesn't have to be making them cheaper either - maybe better, or more interesting in some way.

I wish I said that.
Anyhow, I meant it.
Basically, this thread of mine only makes sense together with the "Low Level Summons" thread, where the general gist of things is to make high-powered summons less attractive and decrease the numbers of no-brainers.
VOs are still no-brainers for me in terms of low-level summons; the only ones I ever spend gems on.

[silhouette]

Aren't there situations where any of you prefer vine men to ogres? I know the HP is a big difference, but it seems like the smaller size (more per square) could be a crucial advantage. Like when facing a thug with really high defence, having more hands attacking in a round, or a low prot opponent where more low HP attacks would be better, or defensively when facing a SC with a huge attack that will kill either an ogre or man in 1 mash, so having more targets takes more time to get through? Does nobody ever use vine men at all after ogres are available, except due to lack of able casters?

Not having to pay for boosters or more research time to get conj up to ogres could result in a lot more then a 3:2 mangre numeric advantage too -- 2:1 or more.

Sill

[Saber Cherry]

silhouette said:
Aren't there situations where any of you prefer vine men to ogres? I know the HP is a big difference, but it seems like the smaller size (more per square) could be a crucial advantage. Like when facing a thug with really high defence, having more hands attacking in a round, or a low prot opponent where more low HP attacks would be better, or defensively when facing a SC with a huge attack that will kill either an ogre or man in 1 mash, so having more targets takes more time to get through? Does nobody ever use vine men at all after ogres are available, except due to lack of able casters?

I used to use vine men, until I noticed their abysmal performance in the combat sim, and I examined ogres more closely. Their stats are just way better, especially attack. 8 attack versus 12 attack makes it hard for vine men to hit anything. A much higher attack and much higher strength together are a very potent combination for roughly the same price. Even though small size does offset the attack disadvantage, it makes vine men vulnerable to trample and area effect spells, and overall I think it's more of a weakness than a strength. The fact that they are more numerous but weaker means more commanders are needed to lead them. And quite simply, vine creatures are often wanted just as meat shields, and ogres get you way more HP per gem than vine men, cover more area per gem than vine men, and thus are more useful in this capacity.

I don't summon vine men anymore, even before I have researched ogres.