SEIV is being Pirated

geoschmo · #1 August 29th, 2001, 06:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
Just a little question for all of you...

Tell me, if you download a copy of original Beowulf off the net, is that stealing?

Also, if it is, who are you stealing from?
Let me know what you think.

If you mean the original Beowulf, the book that's hundreds of years old, no. Even if you knew who wrote it (I think it is listed as author unknown) any copyright protection it would have is long since expired. It would be considered public domain.

Of course if the author were still around, he could more than make up for any lost book sales by publishing his secrets for eternal life.

Geoschmo

LazarusLong42 · #2 August 29th, 2001, 07:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Richard:
Because by downloading it he adds one more vote to why the warez site handler should stay in business and probably makes him some money via banners.

Heh. Indeed, you're absolutely right, and so is Geo. While the download is questionably ethical, the upload certainly is unethical... which invalidates any ethics on the download side. (I knew I was forgetting something

) Unfortunately, that doesn't make it less complex... and it doesn't shut down the warez sites. The question becomes, simply, how to shut them down?

LL

LazarusLong42 · #3 August 29th, 2001, 07:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
Here is al that I know. I think getting and keep programs and not paying for is illegal. Downloading demos and keeping the demos are legal.

Same applies to music.

I never listened to techno or rock or anything until I went to MP3.com by accident and d/l a song. Now I take maybe a day or two each month to go song hunting on these services to figure out what CD I'm going to buy next from the mall.

However, I do not tolerate taking the music, burning a CD out of it, and not paying for the songs unless the songs are public domain.

I am always torn by this sort of debate. As an artist of a differnet sort (fiction) I have to fall on the strict legal side and say that downloading music from Napster is wrong (as a frex). But as a consumer, I feel that sampling the music with intent to possibly purchase is not wrong ethically, if illegal technically.

However, I have to say that ethically _and_ legally, it's wrong to _offer_ the files for distribution unless you are the original artist/writer/whatever.

I have a story coming out in September on a site called Speculon (www.speculon.com). They paid me for the right to publish the story on their site, and as such they can offer the story for distribution. I also know how they publish the stories, and pretty much anyone who knows how to hit ^C^V can copy the story and post it on their own site. This would be patently illegal, and definitely unethical.

But would it be unethical for someone on another site to offer the first several paragraphs of my story, up to the hook? Illegal, technically yes--more than a paragraph or so would be hard to justify under the Fair Use Act. But immoral and unethical? Did they post a link to the original publication and their link is generating more hits to my story? Well, then it's hard to say it's wrong.

And that's where the debate starts to boil down. No matter what point is made that downloading or uploading the material is unethical, there comes a point where the original artist is going to concede that, yeah, it's OK to upload a chunk as long as there's some way to find the original. And then someone who sees this done takes it a step further, and Posts more than should be, or the entire work, or without a link...

And then it goes out of control.

As an artist, there are a dozen ways to feel. Be puritanical about it--as Lars Ulrich, Harlan Ellison, and Paramount Pictures, among others, have done--and try to stop every instance of anything approaching piracy. This, unfortunately, breeds bad blood, as evidenced by the backlash against Paramount that came from Star Trek fansites, or the "Napster Bad" cartoon series published by Camp Chaos. (Harlan Ellison's already hated by enough people that I'm sure the backlash didn't affect him).

Or, be really laid-back about it, as many artists have done--some to the point of simply putting all their material right onto the net. This sounds all warm and fuzzy, but I think all of those artists admit that it cuts into profits a bit.

Software companies, like Shrapnel, have the same choices. Trust their customers, like Shrapnel has, which makes it harder to stop pirates--or place every protection under the sun on the CD. In the latter case though, let's face it, eventually the protection will be cracked. And then the executables show up on warez sites all the same. Open source? Sure, and watch _all_ your profits disappear.

Perhaps the fact that we're still debating hte whole thing is a good sign. There's a whole lot of grey area. Those who uphold strict morals still can; those who are heavily soiled with black can continue screwing over "the man" while under continual threat of being sued or jailed.

And in the meantime, we can hope that artists, companies, and consumers are out there somewhere determining where the happy medium lies.

And I'll continue to be torn, but try my best to be ethical, until the medium is found.

(Whew, that was long. And probably rambling, but I'm not going back to recheck it

And hey, I'm a corporal now! Woo!)

LL

dmm · #4 August 29th, 2001, 07:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
Just a little question for all of you...
Tell me, if you download a copy of original Beowulf off the net, is that stealing?
Also, if it is, who are you stealing from?
Let me know what you think.

Remember, Beowulf was written in Anglo-Saxon. Anything you read in a modern language had to be translated by somebody, who doubtless holds a copyright to his/her work. So you'd be stealing from the translator. But there are undoubtedly translations from so long ago that the copyright has expired, so those would be public domain.

dmm · #5 August 29th, 2001, 08:05 PM

Same for other ancient works like:
The Bible, The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, The Pearl, The Republic, Canterbury Tales, etc.

geoschmo · #6 August 29th, 2001, 08:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dmm:
Remember, Beowulf was written in Anglo-Saxon. Anything you read in a modern language had to be translated by somebody, who doubtless holds a copyright to his/her work. So you'd be stealing from the translator. But there are undoubtedly translations from so long ago that the copyright has expired, so those would be public domain.[/b]

Ok, now we are getting into an area that I am not familier with. Are translations copyrightable? Common sense tells me no. If so, how could you have a copyright at all? I write a book, someone translates it into German. If you can copyright a translation, they hold the copyright to the German Version. Then they translate it back to English. Now they hold another copyrighted translation, that just happens to be identical to my original.

Now, many translations have annotations, or additional original stuff added by the translator. Especially in a case like Beowulf, where historical context may need added. That portion is theirs for sure, but the part that is translated should still be the property of the original author, regardless of the language. Or in this case, the translated portion should be public domain, as is the original work.

Of course I'm not a lawyer, I just talk like one sometimes.

So I could be totally full of bunk on this point.

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 29 August 2001).]

LazarusLong42 · #7 August 29th, 2001, 09:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ok, now we are getting into an area that I am not familier with. Are translations copyrightable? Common sense tells me no. If so, how could you have a copyright at all? I write a book, someone translates it into German. If you can copyright a translation, they hold the copyright to the German Version. Then they translate it back to English. Now they hold another copyrighted translation, that just happens to be identical to my original.

IANAL, but as a writer I know some things about copyright.

1. Yes, translations are copyrightable.

2. The original author owns the right of translation of a work. Therefore, if someone wants to translate a book of mine into German, he/she must purchase from me the right to translate and publish that work in German. S/he may then publish the work. Usually such contracts with stipulate that the original author derives 30-40% royalties from the translation.

(NB: Often the initial contract with the publishing house will transfer this right to the initial publisher with stipulation about royalties to be collected in the event a translation is published.)

3. The original author's name and copyright info must be on the translation. Thus:

_The Rise and Fall of the Phong Empire_ copyright 2000 by Eric Snyder II. German translation copyright 2001 by Hans Offmeibuch.

4. There is no right to retranslate the work into English. It already existed in English. Doing so would be equivalent to piracy.

5. If the original author can't be found, or is unknown, or his/her copyright has expired, then the translation can be created and copyrighted by the translator.

Thus, Beowulf can be translated into modern English and the translation copyrighted by the translator.

However, there are almost certainly translations old enough to be in the public domain.

If you want to copyright your own translation, though, you'd better start with the original Anglo-Saxon.

LL