Baby dies while parents play World of Warcraft

[Mindi]

Mephisto said:
No problem. I'm a bit weird.
You are all right that the baby should have the highest priority. There is no debating that and no one did. But let’s not forget that not all people live the way you and I live.

I don't see this as a subjective thing depending on the way someone lives, I see this as a basic responsibility of having kids.

Yes, there might be pillows that prevent the rolling and suffocation. But not everyone has access to them. The medical standards of the US are not met by most of the world.

This is why I said there were "other methods". There are ways to wedge blankets and regular pillows so that the baby can't move.

Yes, there are monitors. “Real” monitors – not baby phones- are expensive and will not be covered by insurances if no hint for a higher risk for SIDS is diagnosed (talking for Germany, of course). Baby phones make you feel save but you aren’t. If a baby suffocates, it doesn’t cry any more. It has no breath for it [Hence the “first” rule for a paramedic: The one who can cry is treated last, he has enough breath. The ones not crying any more are the severe patients.]. I had my share of SIDS as a paramedic and the parents were sleeping right next to the child.

What you call "baby phones" is what most people call Baby Monitors. You can pick them up in the US starting at about $30. No they are not full proof, but if your baby starts making noises during it's sleep, you should hear it and be alerted to go in and check on the baby. Furthermore, we're not talking about a case of SIDS here, the article says when they got home they found her on her stomach which leads one to believe that they did not place her that way, she rolled over. In which case, see my above response.

Yes, I wouldn’t let my child be alone for any length of time. However, we all do not know when the baby died. It could have been 2 minutes after the last person left it or 2 minutes before they returned. Before calling for punishment we should convince ourselves if they could have done anything about it. Just because they were not there did not necessarily killed the baby. That’s my main point.

When the baby died is irrelevant. The question is, were they negligent (failing to give proper care and attention) in the death of their child and therefore should they be punished? Could they have forseen that leaving a 4 month old alone for 5 hours could result in the baby dying or coming to harm? I think the answer is obviously yes.

I will use this metaphor on how I see this: if I let my friend drive my car and that person gets into an accident, that is a true accident and it is not my fault in any way--I could not have forseen the accident. HOWEVER, if I let my friend drive my car while KNOWING THEY ARE DRUNK OUT OF THEIR MIND and they get into an accident, I am negligent and therefore have committed a crime and should be punished.

No, it is not the same severity as if I intentionally committed a crime, but I knew very well a horrible accident could occur by letting my friend drive my car while intoxicated and I lent them my car anyway.

Leslie, I admire your resolution to sleep in shifts and have a constant watch over your child. But I stand to my point that not very many parents can do this, neither physically nor economically.

I think we shall agree to disagree on this issue as I see much of your arguments to be 'strawmen' arguments in that they don't fit this particular case in which very poor judgement was used. I agree that not everyone can watch their child 24/7. However, we are not talking about someone who went out to their mailbox to get their mail and came back in to find their child suffocated. We're not talking about someone who went to sleep and when they got up to check on their child in the night, they found their child had died from SIDS. Those are horrible tragedies that no parent should have to go through IMO and I feel sorry for anyone who has had to go through that kind of loss.

Instead we are talking about careless and neglectful parents who felt it was okay to leave their child home alone in house for hours at a time. Did they find a babysitter? No. Did they call the neighbor to go down and check on her from time to time even? No. Did they even think twice about leaving this child home alone? Well from the statement they made, I would think the answer to that is No (unless it took more than 2 hours, they only feel guilty it seems about that part). Parents are responsible for their child's well being and safety until they are to the age to take care of themselves. To me it seems they not only failed to do this (by choice, not by mere accident) but they laughed in the face of it by putting their desire to play a game above their child's well being and leaving the child home alone for 5 hours. An act that I believe the majority of people would find indefensible and unforgivable.

Simply put, I hope they throw the book at them.

Mindi signing out.

[Phoenix-D]

"What you call "baby phones" is what most people call Baby Monitors. You can pick them up in the US starting at about $30. No they are not full proof, but if your baby starts making noises during it's sleep, you should hear it and be alerted to go in and check on the baby."

The point being that in this situation..that wouldn't have done a thing. The baby likely died without making a sound.

[Atrocities]

Sad news. But like with everything, soon the internet and games will be advertised as the new evil of our age and politically motivated oppertunistic SOB's will jump on the "ban us from our freedom of choice" band wagon and pass really rediculas laws governing how we as preportedly free people use our computers and the internet.

First off parents have a responsiblity to take care of their children. The fact that these two negelected to do so is cannot be blamed on the World Of Warcraft or any other computer game. They chose to make a bad decison and a child died for it and now they must pay for the decision they made. If this had occured in the USA I would have no doubt that the Parents would be billed as the victims and the World Of Warcraft would be vilified and sued by every leach lawyer ambulance chaser this nation has to offer.

Watch, as they sued the big tobacco, the firearms industry, fast food, now shall they sue video game developers.

Give me a break.

[Leslie]

I don't actually support the notion, that "online games" will become targeted.

It's a reality too many play them too often, and to rediculous levels in most cases.

People also on average drive 10-20 K over the speed limit ALL THE TIME.

The list of things we do to stupid levels is a very long one, and it is mostly because as a whole, we generally speaking are a species prone to stupid levels of excess in our activities.

If people never drank more than one beer, never smoked more than one smoke a day, never bought more than one lottery ticket at one time, near swore more than once in a hour, never eat more than one junk food item at a time, we would be a very fit, very disciplined, very polite species of creature indeed.

But, we are stupid really. For all our cleverness, we truely are not that bright.

Those parents showed their own version of exceedingly irresponsible levels of stupidity. Because it aided the killing of their child in the process.

Generally, I try to ensure my own stupid actions only affect me

[Cypheros]

It's a reality too many play them too often, and to rediculous levels in most cases.

Who determines what qualifies as "too often"? And what gives this person the right to do so? This is a subjective thing. For some people, twenty minutes is too long. For others, ten hours is just fine. My point is that there is nothing wrong with spending time on recreation--it only becomes wrong when it interferes with responsibility. So to your above statement, I would say you are partially wrong.

People also on average drive 10-20 K over the speed limit ALL THE TIME.

What makes this stupid? There are some who ARE CAPABLE of driving such speeds. There are some who aren't. Am I stupid because I do not conform to YOUR view of how I should drive? No--I have different abilities than you. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it is NECESSARILY harmful to you. Laws are made to govern a LARGE group of people, and thus have to cater to the capability of the majority (from the perspective of the government). Therefore, if the majority is incapable of Driving 85 MPH on the interstate, then the speed limit will be lower. But that does NOT NECESSARILY mean that *I* am incapable of driving 85 MPH, or that it is unsafe for me to do so, only that it is unsafe for the major populace, from the P.O.V. of the govt.

The list of things we do to stupid levels is a very long one, and it is mostly because as a whole, we generally speaking are a species prone to stupid levels of excess in our activities.

I agree, but then that is our freedom of choice, and I wouldn't wish to remove that from anyone. Freedom of choice means we have the opportunity to choose good or bad (and other, non-moral choices, of course). If you remove this choice from someone, he/she ceases to be human. Yes, some people choose poorly. That is their right. Just as it is my right to seek justice when someone else's poor choice injures me in some way. THAT is why we have laws: to punish those who make choices that injure someone else.

{end tangent] (Sorry to seem to pick on you, but your post contained the points most directly that I wanted to emphasize.)

Now, as to the video game industry being targeted. If it was in the US, you KNOW they would be targeted. Michael Carneal walked into a High School in Paducah, Kentucky, shot and killed 5 or so classmates. The kid killed people. He is now in a minimum security psych-ward doing whatever he wants, while his parents, and the parents of the deceased SUED a major video game company (forget which one) and WON! Why? Because "violent video games MADE him kill people"!!!! NO, it didn't. Just like in this case, WoW DIDNT MAKE these parents leave their child alone for 5 hours. IT WAS THEIR CHOICE--THEY are responsible, not the video game manufacturer. Yet, because our society is too wussy to stand up like adults and take the blame for OUR OWN ACTIONS, we blame everything on everyone else. How do we sleep at night?

[Leslie]

The key to this story, is two adults are criminally negligent, regardless if babies die all the time whether a parent tries everything under the sun to prevent it from happening.

No, it wasn't the game, that's silly.

The game was just lucky to become the target.

The target of two people that never should have been allowed to become parents, at all, ever.

Is that me denying them basic human freedoms? Damn right.

What right do I have to do that?

Explain your question to the dead baby.

Oh wait, the baby is dead, can't be asked.

Given a choice, I tend to side with the real victim, rather than champion a good cause (rampant out of control freedom for the sake of it) when the recipient is a worthless waste of skin.

Re the driving laws example. I vote we remove all speeding limits. If you cause an accident that results in a fatality, as a result of your careless actions, we just give you the death sentence. Seems fair.
Remember, driving fast isn't entirely about YOUR being able to deal with driving fast, it's also about other users of the road dealing with you insistence on driving as fast as you like. They might not be able to deal with your excessive speed eh.

And that can be applied to other thought processes.

Sometimes the good of the many, is just that, about the good of the many. Even if it inconveniences the potential of some of the few.

[Uncle_Joe]

The thing I find disturbing is that in the US, you have to have a license to drive a car. In many cases, that means having to pass a course on the rules of the road and complete a written test. This is in addition to a 'behind the wheel' test. All of this is to drive a car.

What do you have to do to have a child? Nothing...nada...zip. If you want one, go for it. You dont have to display any competence to care for one and you dont really even have to display any means to afford one. All you have to do is want to have one.

To me, that is just crazy. Sure we have all kinds of laws and agencies that can go after negligent parents, but that all occurs AFTER the negligence. In cases like this (and many others), its too late.

I'm not sure what the solution would be, but I know I'd certainly like to see potential parents have to display SOME form of basic parenting skills...

[Veldor]

Leslie said:
It's a reality too many play them too often, and to rediculous levels in most cases.

What exactly is too much to you? 40 hrs a week? 20? 10? I'll bet you, or at least the average wargamer, spends FAR longer playing wargames or otherwise thinking or talking about them than the vast majority of MMPORG players.

Why must every group of gamers think that every other group of gamers is nuts?

Nothing in the news article suggests they were addicts. Though they very well may have been, 1 or 2 hours a couple days a week or even every day is peanuts compared to how much time the average wargamer spends playing.

Likewise the average MMPORG player these days is not a teenager. They are the slightly older if not much older crowd like us wargamers and strategy enthusiasts. This is exactly why most MMPORG have changed from what they were a long time ago. They have evolved to cater towards the more casual and/or solo players. This is less true of WoW than say EQ2, but the basic premisses still apply.

Many Many adults play MMPORGs and do so quite happily with only occasional frequency. You can no more get addicted to an MMPORG than any other type of game. Curt Shilling is a big EQ2 fan as are plenty of other notables.

Likely the fact that they had to go to an internet cafe just to play also suggests they weren't exactly rich to begin with. So all manner of special pillows and baby monitors were likely unavailable.

Did they use poor judgement? Of course. One way or the other one of them should have stayed home, or were they both to go out a babysitter of some sort left to care for the infant.

MMPORG's have nothing to do with this, nor does this event provide any reason to make any negative remarks about the MMPORG community.