Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US)

[SCAJolly]

I am surprised someone have the patience and, in my honest opinion, the STUPIDITY to spend so much time and "research" on such a long, idiotic, extremely subjective and biased piece of work. This qualifies for a "Most fooged up way of spending a heck lot of spare time".
As for tracked/road, there are benefits of both, depending on the scenery.

[Backis]

SCAJolly said:
I am surprised someone have the patience and, in my honest opinion, the STUPIDITY to spend so much time and "research" on such a long, idiotic, extremely subjective and biased piece of work.

Hey man, its the weekend and I've got no booze money!

[JaM]

About M113 unofficial name look at this for example http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m113.htm
"The M113A1, informally known as the Gavin, is a lightly armoured full tracked air transportable personnel carrier designed to carry personnel and certain types of cargo...." So as you see, there are many people calling M113 gavin...

2mil for OHWS and C4I...Rafael makes much better and much cheaper systems,There is a M113 version with 2x7.62mm and one 12.7mm OWS.

With this armor modification is M113 capable stop even MILAN ATGM http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...13/Zelda2.html


About M113 vs M1114, you can easily mount SLAT armor to M113 without any big changes to a driving capabilities. (Stryker with SLAT is not so fast as you think,Its suspension is not build for such overweight.) Mayor Flaw of M1114 are front window, they are breakable with 7.62,broken glass is dangerous to driver, even if round will not penetrate.(As you maybe know M113 dont have windows...)
In Mogadishu fighting there wasnt even one M998 in the convoy.Most of wounded crew of humwees were hit thru the windows or when they fired from .50cal

[Backis]

2mil for OHWS and C4I...Rafael makes much better and much cheaper systems,There is a M113 version with 2x7.62mm and one 12.7mm OWS.

Oh please, you're such an authority on judging these types of systems are you Mr "In everything, they are more versatile"?



1; If you think FAS is a good reliable source you're kidding yourself. To much crap has snuck in and noone has seriously maintained the site for years. Why don't you quote Wikipedia or something next, huh?

2; They guy claiming that the applique armour on that M113 stops Milan doesn't know what he's talking about. Exact specifications of the armour are ofcourse classified to begin with...

A hint can however be taken from the fact that USMC uses a version (imported from Israel) as an applique addon on LVTP-7's (the EAAK kit).

Against HEAT it is described as having following effectiveness;

"(it)Substantially decreases the effectiveness of shape charge weapons by reducing the fragmentation debris cone from 110° to 35°"

This is not "immunity"...

In AAR's it seems to be barely sufficient vs PG-7/7M against which is has failed completely at least once resulting in a total loss. Total number of hits, or data on penetrations failing to destroy the vehicle I haven't got, but I assume the vehicle should be relatively resistant to the damage due to its sheer size (overpressure and heat causing fire is less of a problem), giving a statistical probability of several more penetrations.

This all suggest even early Milan would eat it for lunch...


Amazing...

It was a pleasure not communicating with you.

Bye bye now, and welcome to my ignore list, because to be honest you bore me and isn't worth further effort.

[SCAJolly]

From Wikipedia:
Approximately 80,000 units of all types have been produced worldwide making it the most widely used armored fighting vehicle of all time. The M113 is unofficially known as M113 Gavin.

I think we can indeed call it a fact that the unofficial nick for the M-113 IS Gavin, or would anyone like to sit in their holes at that?

[JaM]

Maybe in Sweden they call them unofficially diferently... :-)

[JaM]

By the way, M113 gets name by this man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_M._Gavin

[Backis]

Against better knowledge I'll bite again... I'm just friggin dumb...

Your insults just indicate what the person you are.

Nice of you adding your own "insults" when I promise to ignore you, such an act of overt bravery!

I guess you're no better than me, being "what the person" I am.

Though you making claims you cant support then try to spin your way out of them by distraction and smokescreens say something about what kinda person you are?

If you somehow missed it the thing I am debating with you is this statement of yours;

"In everything, they are more versatile."

You refuse to even acknowledge you made this statement, instead you employ topic drift and pretend to debate something else to cover yourself from fallout from a stupid statement.

JaM said:

Backis: Addon armor for LVTP-7 is not the same as on Zelda-2, read thread on tanknet more preciselly.

That might be so, however there is a report critical of it for failing to stop PG-7/PG-7M warheads, so I think they actually were believed to be at least resistant to that threat level and failed. But this is pretty irrelevant to the core debate between you and I anyway.

I haven't stated, nor intend to state that wheeled vehicles are "in everything more versatile" to tracked vehicles. Both have their advantages and drawbacks. The point I make is that there are missions where a wheeled vehicle have advantages over tracked vehicles, this you meet with nonsense about M113 going "through" threats, which is another daft position considering you don't specify which threat.

Even if the applique package for the Zelda 2 would be superior to the yet undeployed applique pack for the Stryker, better protection levels alone still does not equal;

"In everything, they are more versatile."

See? I can concede a point, but still your statement remain ludicrous.

Stop squirming and fess up to that it was am unsupported unfactual statement made without really considering its meaning and you'll find that we're probably closer on this subject than you think.

Sorry about being an [censored] about this, I'm usually not this bad. Must be having a bad week.