War.... (Historical: 9/11 discussion thread)

[tesco samoa]

it's scary seeing the world change. and it did change. Only time will show if it will get better or worse. Take care everyone.
I am off to have a pint with my dad and talk about our hero's ( Soccer, football hockey and movies) maybe with a little more vigor than usual. But it will be a good distraction. Talk to you all tomorrow.

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[AJC]

The world did change yesterday - and I think we can safely say that the view of the world changed for the average American, and not for the better.
There cannot and never will be justice derived from "getting" the terrorists who killed apparently thousands of people in the attacks yesterday. Putting these people on trial, in Jail, killing them, or bombing the host countries into the stone age will never bring justice- for there is no Justice in war.

It is unfortunate that in the coming days people who are just as innocent as those killed in NYC will most likely be killed in some country across the world. It is a sad day for all of humanity.

What happen to our country yesterday is unacceptable and right or wrong , vengence will be visited on the perpertrators and their host countries. I grieve for all those who have died and will die in the coming days and months.
In my entire 36 years of life I have never seen my fellow Americans so enraged. I have seen people waving flags on overpasses, flags going up at homes, men and women crying silently in anger and I am watching the shock of yesterday turn to a simmering rage, much like what you hear happened in the USA after Pearl Harbor. These terrorist have awakened a sleeping giant, the American population, and they have made a terrible miscalculation. When will people learn that nothing changes because of these acts of violence visited on innocents, they only intensify the issues at hand. . .
Some have compared yesterday to Pearl Harbor - I say its worse. Pearl Harbor was horrible - but it was an attack on military targets by an enemy with a face. Yesterday was an act of violence by worthless cowardly people- who have visited destruction on our neighbors, friends, Moms, Dads, Brothers and sisters. The people who committed these acts are people who are so small that they cannot think for themselves, Instead they are manipulated by individuals who themselves sit in the shadows, in the comfort and safety of their homes while these poor misguided souls do their dirty work for them.
God help us all in the coming weeks.
My thoughts prayers go out to the people of NYC and Washington DC.



[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 13 September 2001).]

[Fred]

NATO today has, the first time ever in its history, declared the invoking of Article V of the NATO charter, the mutual defence situation.

This declares an attack on any member of the alliance is to be considered an attack on all of them.

All NATO armed forces were set to a high state of alert.
Europe now stands shoulder to shoulder with its United States friends and allies.

We in germany are deeply shocked, but dedicated to support the United States with all actions they will take, be it political, diplomatic or military actions. This state of mind applies to all other NATO and EU members.

We mourn for the innocent victims in NYC and Washington, that were hit by an unprecedented act of murder.

Take care you all!

Fred
Germany

[Mordante]

Well my world view changed on tuesday I can tell you. I'm British, and I watched the developing massacre live on BBC, and besides offering my sympathy and best regards to anyone who lost friends and family in those outrages, I am now seriously wondering exactly where our civilisation goes from here.

Is the USA military actually capable of delivering any sort of proportionate justice for this? I mean, 20-30 terrorists in exchange for tens of thousands of innocents -how do you punish that and answer the need for vengeance that will burn in millions of breasts across America and the West?

With a few missiles and ineffective airstrikes? I don't think so. It really does need the "war" that bush and his advisors are talking about, but that really will shake the world order and take tremendous guts and resolve to make it happen - I hope it does.

Prior to tuesday I was quietly opposed to the private ownership of handguns and civilian gun proliferation .... now, well frankly, I feel that if anyone is going to wield weapons in sensitive environments it ought to be ordinary people not the crazies and fanatics. I find it absolutely heartbreaking to think of the passengers on those airliners rendered helpless by a rabble of fanatics with knives and cardboard-cutters.

Frankly, let reservists and civil authorities carry guns on airplanes from here on in ... If this "war" on terrorism is to be won then the ordinary guy on the street needs the tools to fight back.

And this from a British liberal ...

Well, I'm with you guys ...

[geoschmo]

quote:

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I asked him if England had a right to carpet bomb Northern Ireland or Ireland after a car bomb.

Know what the guy said.

Well that's different.

How I asked.

He would not answer.

That's too bad.

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I can give you hundreds of reasons why this is different. In the next few days and weeks I will be able to give you thousands, God forbid possibly tens of thousands of reasons why this is different.

This is not a simple act of terroism.
This is not a lunatic car bomb in market in Dublin.
This is not a lunatic with dynamite strapped to his body blowing up a bus in Tele Viv.
This is not a lunatic with a machine gun in Gaza.
This is not a lunatic with a truck full of fertalizer in Oklahoma City.

This was a well planed, well financed, well thought out attack.

It is not simply sabre rattling to say this is an act of war. It's a different kind of war to be sure, but it is a war nonetheless.

If a nation, any nation, can be shown to have been involved in this, even indirectly by simply allowing those guilty freedom of movement and the ability to train, then that nation can be, MUST be held responsible. Eqully responsible to those that took an active part in the actions.

Random bombing, no. But if it takes carpet bombing, if it takes battalions of soldiers, if it takes many mnay deaths, even the deaths of US soldiers, this cannot be allowed to stand.

The only way to prevent these acts is to make those responisble, even indirectly pay such a high price for their actions that others in the future will see the futility of these kinds of things.

Geoschmo

[Taqwus]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mordante:
Well my world view changed on tuesday I can tell you. I'm British, and I watched the developing massacre live on BBC, and besides offering my sympathy and best regards to anyone who lost friends and family in those outrages, I am now seriously wondering exactly where our civilisation goes from here.

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Maybe not THAT much of a change in worldview. I seem to recall a decade or so ago, when plane and ship (remember the Achille Lauro?) hijackings were much more common and certain factions significantly more active -- the Abu Nidal group, Baeder-Meinhof (sp? Also known as Red Army Faction, IIRC), and others -- it was common practice for hijackers to demand passports, to allow them to single out Americans.

Some of these people have been pissed off at the United States for a long, long time, and perhaps with the Cold War over there are fewer barracks (in, say, Beirut) providing convenient targets.

quote:

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[/b]
Is the USA military actually capable of delivering any sort of proportionate justice for this? I mean, 20-30 terrorists in exchange for tens of thousands of innocents -how do you punish that and answer the need for vengeance that will burn in millions of breasts across America and the West?
[/b]

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You don't, really. You do, however, significantly boost HUMINT (human intelligence. It's broadly accepted, IIRC, that the US pays too much attention to ELINT/SIGINT (electronic / signals), and relies too much on its satellites and other technology, and far too little to human assets. The KGB was far better than its Western counterparts, albeit it was working with a far easier target -- an open society.

We also, hopefully, actually notice that airport security has been woefully pathetic in the United States. As recent as two weeks ago, airlines were still providing metal cutlery, for instance. A butter knife may not be serrated, but it's sure going to hurt jammed into somebody's jugular. And I've even had a laptop unquestioned, on a flight to Egypt no less.

The 4-inch rule for knives, which I didn't know about (my SAK -- a Ranger model, something like an 85mm non-locking blade IIRC -- always went in my checked-in luggage), doesn't seem terribly swift, either. I wouldn't relish being slashed with a 1-inch blade, let alone 4.

We probably pay much more attention to finding drugs than weaponry, which is remarkably complacent.

quote:

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With a few missiles and ineffective airstrikes? I don't think so. It really does need the "war" that bush and his advisors are talking about, but that really will shake the world order and take tremendous guts and resolve to make it happen - I hope it does.

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I think this may turn into a long-term conflict. Actually, it's *been* a long-term conflict, since we've been aiding other nations against terrorists for a long time -- providing training, sharing intelligence data, and so forth. More important than missiles are developing human assets to provide a better probability of warning, although I'm not too optimistic about the possibility of infiltrating fanatical Groups... assuming that most remaining Groups are not run by fools (and, to have survived this long, they probably are not) they are going to be careful about giving out operational details (IOW, compartmentalization) or even accepting people without having established clear bona fides.

Even if bin Laden showed up and publicly blew himself up in Times Square, it would not end there, anymore than the suicide bombings in Israel stopped after the Israelis managed to nab the one dubbed "the Engineer". Security is always an on-going process, and one in which an open society will necessarily have great difficulty.

quote:

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Prior to tuesday I was quietly opposed to the private ownership of handguns and civilian gun proliferation .... now, well frankly, I feel that if anyone is going to wield weapons in sensitive environments it ought to be ordinary people not the crazies and fanatics. I find it absolutely heartbreaking to think of the passengers on those airliners rendered helpless by a rabble of fanatics with knives and cardboard-cutters.

Frankly, let reservists and civil authorities carry guns on airplanes from here on in ... If this "war" on terrorism is to be won then the ordinary guy on the street needs the tools to fight back.

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They'd better have special ammo loads, then. I'm also not particularly thrilled at the idea of untrained "ordinary guys", incredibly paranoid (trivia: a local radio station reported that gun sales were up 15-30% at various gun stores nearby), packing heat in such an unfavorable area -- a narrowly confined region with plenty of innocent civillians, and unusually high potential negative consequences for stray shots. And I'm not even a Sikh (IIRC, they carry knives for religious reasons, and to an ignorant paranoid, might be mistaken for an Arab, headgear and all).

quote:

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And this from a British liberal ...

Well, I'm with you guys ...

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Deathstalker]

Don't know if anyone else saw this but it was reported on the DC Comics posting Boards with a link. There was a t-shirt place selling t-shirts with the logo 'I crashed into the world trade centre, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt'.....The poster on the comic board rallied people and soon hundreds were emailing in with their outrage at such a thing...The offending merchandise was removed....how anyone can take advantage of such a tragedy for profit is beyond me....The sad thing is in probally a year or two there will be a movie of the week or something.....