Security - Player 2 has already played this turn?

[embis]

I just had it happen in a second game now.

I wont send you the files because I havent used the default path for the install.


Starting to feel rather cautious about starting anymore PBEM games now.

Is it really necessary for the game to lock you out after a security breech?

Couldnt it just be set up to alert you and then load the turn anyway...at least then the player could choose to decide "my opponents a cheat I dont want to finish this game" instead of having the game make this decision on the players behalf.

[Mobhack]

embis said:
I just had it happen in a second game now.

I wont send you the files because I havent used the default path for the install.

Starting to feel rather cautious about starting anymore PBEM games now.

Is it really necessary for the game to lock you out after a security breech?

Couldnt it just be set up to alert you and then load the turn anyway...at least then the player could choose to decide "my opponents a cheat I dont want to finish this game" instead of having the game make this decision on the players behalf.

Did you do any of the things I mentioned to your path or file names etc?

if not - perhaps your opponent did (perhaps without realising the side effects ?).

As this particular message ensures that the player cannot load the save game onto a different computer or path and try the turn several times - then it really should stop play, IMHO.

I'd like to get to the bottom of why a very few players seem to be getting this particular message. It would be very nice to find some way to reproduce the error!.

The version in the patch will be dumping a text file with debug info on a PBEM load attempt (including the current path you are trying to play in, and the expected path for both players).

Cheers
Andy

[embis]

Thanks Andy,
I do have three installations on my system,(I know!!) One for Mods OOb edits and the like, (which I dont play any pbem games in) One to finish my old pbem games and one (from the CD) for my new games.

The problems have occoured once in the CD version and once in the D/L version.

Once the error occured when it was my turn and once when it was my opponents turn.

I tried deleting the old "faulty" turn restoring the previous "good" turn and then re-playing the "faulty" turn. still the same message.

Although I havent installed to the default paths in any version, neither have I changed the paths since the games were installed.

Obviously with two competing versions of the game on my system there is the risk that I inadvertantly unzipped to the wrong game but, obviously, I dont think that happened.

Anyway as my PBEM games fail the need for having more than one version on my system is rapidly becoming academic

I understand why you believe that the game should halt if a security breech is recognised...but if it didnt do that at least we could all have finished our games.

[Stian]

Thanks for continuing the investigation Andy

I have to agree with embis that it shouldn't be necessary to lock players out because of a 'security breach'. Better to warn *both* players that something failed on the other end so that they could sort things out between themselves, for instance - if one user had to re-install the game and told the other then it should be no problem.

My opponent and I have not had this error again in our latest 4 games so things are looking good for us. Both still using PBEM Helper. Neither me nor my opponent have changed directories for the game or changed computers since installing the game.

But - I admit that the first time I got the error I had 'accidentaly' (ok ... I was curious) deleted PBEMRegistry.dat since I didn't understand what it did. I tend to do these things when my curiosity gets too high

The game worked fine afterwards but I got the error after my opponent had played and sent me his turn. So, it could be related or not, and people here have been very firm in that PBEMRegistry is not the culprit so I don't know.

Anyway, as I understand it the PATH to the game (for me 'e:\games\WinSPMBT\') gets saved in the SpEml001.dat file (encrypted), and then the game runs a check on the path every time it's opened? But even with this check, what's to stop a cheater from playing the same turn over again just by overwriting the old game? The path hasn't changed so the check should pass.

However I've noticed that if I try this (and just for *testing* thank you), the loads/quits/fails counter still gets increased, which is nice since that would still let the other player check for signs of cheating without locking them out of the game. But does this not also mean that the number of turns played are recorded *somewhere* else than the savegame .dat file since this just gets overwritten?

I'm not asking *where* it's saved, just wondering if...

And please don't misunderstand and think I ask this because I want to *cheat* - It's just that I'm curious as to how the security measures work in PBEM games, since obviously it's a lot different than SPWAW which I've got more experience with.

Looking forward to the patch!

Stian

[Mobhack]

We will get to the botom of this one, somehow.

What I really need to have for debugging is some idea of the steps needed to get to the condition (ie a reproducible fault).

Nb - you can have several installations on the same PC, it is just that you MUST play your PBEM game in the exat same installation as you started it in. and basically with no file changes to that installation in the meantime (applies to both players

None of the following
- Changing file names to different PBEM slot numbers
- installing the game again to that path as that will reinitialise counters etc
- trying to play a turn in a different installation
- renaming the file path to the instalation in Windows or DOS etc


I have changed the file path comparison routine to be case-insensitive in the patch version (just in case for some odd reason something is returning the path in say uppercase only).

I have also added a routine to dump out some path and player details to a text file on loading a PBEM. This may help us debug any such problems in the future. The bug seems to affect only a few players (and I assume these folk know thier opponent and can verify the opponent has not done any of the above at his end ?) and only in some games. It may take a bit of time to track it down.

Unfortunately - none of our playtesters have managed to reproduce this problem, as yet.


Cheers
Andy

[embis]

Thanks Andy, Looking forward to the patch

[Stian]

When it comes to the security features Andy mentions, I have a couple of comments;

- Changing file names to different PBEM slot numbers

I actually believe it would be useful if this was allowed - I've had to use it several times (in spwaw)in the past when my opponent has forgotten to use the slot we've agreed on. Instead of him having to start and play again I could just rename the files. Also, with the reduced number of PBEM save slots in the free version this is even more important.

- trying to play a turn in a different installation

I have an opponent who usually plays one turn at work and then one in the evening at home. With the security in WinSPMBT this would not be possible for him.

I think that these features have been really well thought out by the developers and that they work really well for stopping cheats. At at the same time I believe they are a bit too paranoid and cause too much harm than good, especially since they obviously go wrong occasionally.

If they were more forgiving we wouldn't have to lose a savegame because of some minor mishap or bug. After all, it's only a *game*

Stian

[Pepper]

for the record, my problem was my error -- i was trying to play the game on an incorrect install of spmbt.

now if only i could figure out why another of my games has like 10 fails for each side and I can only explain one on my end ....

[DRG]

Stian said:
When it comes to the security features Andy mentions, I have a couple of comments;

I actually believe it would be useful if this was allowed - I've had to use it several times (in spwaw)in the past when my opponent has forgotten to use the slot we've agreed on. Instead of him having to start and play again I could just rename the files. Also, with the reduced number of PBEM save slots in the free version this is even more important.

It's REALLY not too difficult to agree to use slot "X" before starting the game is it? Allowing players to change slot numbers allows cheaters to florish. It allows players to set up two parallel games. It may not seem a big deal now but cheating used to be a serious problem to the point where people gave up playing PBEM and it's not anymore because of the anti cheating measures introduced. It's one of those " people who forget history are bound to repeat it" type of issues. Yes, sometimes they get in the way of things, that's true of any kind of security. One problem we are having which I think accounts for some of these reports is people are forgetting WinSPMBT is NOT WaW. Different game, Different designers, Different base code. They are not the same game and "procedures" that worked for WaW like renaming PBEM's to a different slot simply does not work in WinSPMBT

Stian said:

I have an opponent who usually plays one turn at work and then one in the evening at home. With the security in WinSPMBT this would not be possible for him.

I think that these features have been really well thought out by the developers and that they work really well for stopping cheats. At at the same time I believe they are a bit too paranoid and cause too much harm than good, especially since they obviously go wrong occasionally.

If they were more forgiving we wouldn't have to lose a savegame because of some minor mishap or bug. After all, it's only a *game*

Stian

The problem with allowing players to play secure PBEM on two machines is because unscrupulous players can play out a turn over, and over, and over and send you the one after they know where all your hidden tanks and ATGM are because they sent out their units on suicide missions the first three times to draw fire and now know where your units are.

If you feel your opponents can be fully trusted to play fairly then simply do not use the secure PBEM. However, all you need is one time where that arty sure seems to be right on target to trigger your own paranoia and it may or may not be misplaced but you'll always wonder if he did cheat. With secure PBEM you never have to wonder if your "buddy" is just a good player or he's been screwing you over.

Don