Engineers laying mines

[KevinRanger95]

I also know you can't determine a mine being buried or surface laid in the game!!!!!

[Mobhack]

One mine unit is a lot of actual mines, covering a 50 metre hex area, and hidden, ie buried.

Minelets are auto detected (as they are on the surface) - but they probably should have been removed when we converted to DOS SPMBT but had been there in the original OOBS, and were probably there in some scenarios as well. it takes a long time (an hour plus) of 18 or so 155mm howitzers laying minelet rounds, to cover a 150 metre or so minefield to an effective level. They are not instant, ans so really as we cannot do fractions of .001 of a mine unit mine laying, then the only mines really should be the pre laid ones as with SPWW2. Minelets would make sense in a division level game, which this is not. hence the restriction to 3 or so rounds, and the high cost, to balance the unrealistic laying time the game engine allows them.

Adding crop-spraying mine units in human hands, is not therefore a good idea, as they themselves would need several reloads to fill a 50 metre square to an EFFECTIVE barrier level. 1 hex point of mines of mines in SP games is an effective barrier level, and not a "nuisance" amount.

Cheers
Andy

[KevinRanger95]

Thats why I was concerned with how many hexes would be covered, What I was trying to recreate is a helo that can drop a FASCAM minefield for about 3 or 4 hexes about what FASCAM minefield cover now in the game.
I don't want to fill one hex with 50 mines, we would be back to that whole mine problem with there being to many, I don't like that bug.
I think if this was ever greated, like you said, its not good, you would have to have disipline, to make it fair to reality, thank you !!!!!!!!!!

[Mobhack]

A hex is 50 metres.

let's call it square for ease of calculation (it will actually be more)

Let us assume that 1 mine point represents about one mine in every 5 by 5 metre box for ease of calculation.

50 times 50 is 2500 square metres. divide by 5 times 5 is 25, so 2500/25 = 100 mines as a WAG for the amount needed.

100 anti-tank mines, are not carried in the back pack of a 10 man engineer section.

Additionally - SP minefields are dual purpose. So add a minimum of 100 anti-personell mines to our little garden of death. probably more, as apers to AP ratio os usually 2 to 1. say 300 mines.

A 1 point minefield may well be less than that figure i first guessed at - assume a narrow belt somewhere in the 50 by 50 square, rest being empty, so back to maybe 150 actaul mines. Still, probably a truck-load. And much more than a quick "phut" from some mine dispenser vehicle, which probably can throw a couple of dozen per discharge?. A bar mine layer might have 150 mines inside, but to plough that area would take it a half an hour (more?) - plus initial survey of the ground, placement of tapes and so on.

Any real minelaying is therefore not realistic in game terms. manual digging of the things would need a couple of sections (20 or so guys) and an ammo vehicle, with no interruptions, for maybe 2-3 hours (I dont have my mine warfare text to hand ATM). Surface laying would possibly bring the time down to 45 minutes or an hour - still not feasable in game terms, and we do not have a counter or any real concept in the game engine of an engineer task that needs 30+ turns uninterrupted to complete a task.


A mine symbol is not 2 engineer guys placing a half a dozen real mines into a 50 by 50 meter (half a football pitch or so) area.

Cheers
Andy

[KevinRanger95]

WOW, thats alot of mines, not what I'm looking for.
And I forgot about the whole AP mines, I'm not a cannon cocker but I did know they were dual purpose.
Yeh game scale forgot that to, half a football field is a big place to drive through with 2 or 3 mines laid.
Ok I have accomplished a couple of things
1- I burnt my brain messing with a couple of engineer guys
2- I mock some of the people who don't think before they type, and realized I have become one of those
3- I don't like mines in real life or this game but both are in my life in real and in the game
4- Andy, you are the only one I know that can use "FARMERS MUCK SPRAYING" in a sentence which deters the use of mines.
Wonder if we can't get you to speak at the UN on banning mines in warfare and you have to use that phrase in your speech.(lol)
As Maj. Abrams told use one day in pinion canyon, "men if you find yourself in a FASCAM mine field, don't get off your tank, they lay anti personnel mines also".
Thanks andy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Listy]

Mobhack said:
Still, probably a truck-load. And much more than a quick "phut" from some mine dispenser vehicle, which probably can throw a couple of dozen per discharge?.

Shielder kicks out 240 mines in one salvo. I belive it can lay a mine feild 1KM long as well, Although that's probaly just a single line.

Shielder is bassed on the US M163 Volcano Mine laying system normaly mounted on a truck.

The other "On map" Mine laying unit I created was a tornado armed with a hunting JP233 and that has 215 mines per pod, and it carries two pods.

Don't ya jsut hate me?

[Weeble]

Here is are the vital stats for 'Volcano' and other SCATMINE from the Stryker Brigade Combat Team Field Manual at:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ap10.htm#10-22

Note in particular the

limitations 10-24 f

required densities table 10-3

(0.5 mines per square metre to 'delay') Mobhack was actally underestimating the number of mines required in his earlier example.

laying & reload times 10-26 c 1

( 10mins & 20mins plus movement time for an experienced crew) 3turns plus 7turns plus....

Please also note 10-28 b table 10-6

Minimum safe distance 235m (5 hexes)
Theoretical danger distance 640m (13 hexes)

You would probably blow yourself up an the approx 5% mislaid mines.

Also if they are randomly scattered how are you going to get out of the hex?

[DRG]

PlasmaKrab said:
!!!Warning!!!

From my own experience, range=O implies game crash. Test it if you want, I may have had other issues when I tested that, but as soon as I fired a range=0 weapon, it all went fuzzy and back to desktop.

Plasma.....I need you to test something for me ASAP

Load the game and set the date to anytime in 1951 with anyone as player two but set player one to either NVA or VC.
It may be easier to either build a test scenario or a very small game on a 20x20 map. Buy VC "Sc Assaut Suici" and make sure you buy the ones that have the "bombe" as the last weapon. Then buy NVA "allies" and this time buy an "Assault Sec" that uses the "Assualt Squad" with the "bomb" as the last weapon

Both of those are the only two units in the OOB's that use a range zero weapon. I ran one test and there was no crashing on my machine. I need you to test if they cause a problem on yours



Don

[Weeble]

I've tried both these units {VC & NVA)whilst musing over "terrorist" type scenarios to try to create suicide bombers.

At range = 0 both work but if under manual control vs a soft target you 'W' select weapon and type '4' (for the bomb/bombe) they fire their PPSh 41s then the LMG: ie Weapons 1 & 2. Thought this was a "only use the weapon as last resort" sequence coded in there!, as they very rarely use it under normal 'fire' command.

If you switch off weapons 1,2 and 3 then they do use the bomb(e).

Against armour they happily use the AP flavour of bomb(e) as its the best AP they've got.

Range = 0 seems to work, but the units are usually destroyed/routed/surrendered by AI fire getting to point blank. As the bomb(e) doesn't damage them (but is very nasty to the opponent)I thought the 'suicide' name related to closing with the enemy. Set up on turn 1 to occupy the same hex as an enemy unit they work, but this seems pointless under player control. Considered them for a "blow the gates" opening to a scenario.

Never tried them under AI control (which is what I wanted) as the oddities above made me think they wouldn't detonate.

Weeble

[DRG]

What I'm concerned about is he reported game crashes when trying range zero experiemnts, I know how they work. I want to know if he tries them is his system stable. Mine is, obviously yours is too but is Plasmas? If no, I need to fix this before the patch goes out and right now that's just about the last thing holding it up

Don