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  #1  
Old October 13th, 2005, 08:47 AM
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Default Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

I don't care how good your economy is, you aren't paying everyone well. Someone, somewhere is getting shafted. Of course if that's somone outside your country, that's OK. But someone gets exploited.

So you've got lots of goverment created jobs... Hmmm burecratic goodness, which are going to be work creation pure and simple. Things that don't need doing, but get done to give people jobs. There are only so many roads you can build and so on. This gets pricey very quickly, especially if its a 'good' wage.

The problem with divine right was "Why the hell does that guy run the country just because he was born to it?" So there are nobles helping? Wonderful! "Why does that bunch of guys run the country, just because they're born to it?"

Your counter argument is wrong, the second easiest way to become a saint is to be martyred. People have regularly killed saint like people. So unless none of the Icarans have any free will or independent thought they will resist goverment brain washing. Which is what they seem to do, raise 'em to believe this and nothing else.

Finally if your main aim is the community then just because someones the head, doesn't mean killing them wouldn't be good. If you say 'Everyone's subject to laws, except the boss' that's just going to piss people off more.

An unelected hereditary quasi-religious absolute and un-questionable leader. Possibly the worst sort of goverment I can imagine.
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Old October 13th, 2005, 09:35 AM
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Default Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

Point 1: Well yeah actually you got it right on the nose someone OUTSIDE the empire is being exploited economically Not Icarans.

Point 2: Well think of it like this fastfood companies have VAST turnover because no one wants to work there for long, and many of these people end up unemployed for quite a while (and I've met two that just went on wellfare for a good long while because nothing "suited them") the Icaran government basically says "No way in hell your quiting that fast food job until you get a better one lined up and prove it." they also don't give out wellfare so slobs can sit on their butts at home.

Think about how many wellfare people suck up cash in the US and don't do anything worthwhile in return (not counting those who literally can't work), instead of getting paid to sit on their butts and drink beer the Icarans only pay them when they are doing something productive for the Empire.

It actually creates economic growth because not only are you increasing productivity but you are increasing the amount of people who can buy goods thus increasing both supply and demand at the same time.

A "good wage" doesn't mean white collar, they do have minimum wage jobs yah know And the government doesn't pay them the company the government sent them to does just like a modern company.

The problem with your argument over "Divine Right" is that Icarans have been raised for litterally GENERATIONS to beleive in this process, it's in their very "nature" to have a Praetor and it's hard if not impossible for them to imagine another form of government that could work.
Just like when you walk up to a guy who's from a democratic government and he can't imagine living in any other form of government.

Essentially Icarans are allowed to live their lives freely as long as they violate no laws and are productive citizens so why should they even question the status quo?
A generally content and well treated and cared for population that feels like their government is not above the law (which as I stated many times the Praetor and Nobility aren't) and is generally watching out for their well being has no reason to rebel just for the sake of it.

Hell you know how many people in America right after the Revolution wanted to establish a Monarchy?

The Icaranverse never had a "Democratic" revolution that succeded or if it did it turned into a bloodbath so Democracy to an Icaran or voting for leaders to an Icaran is as alien as having a Praetorship and Nobility is to us.

The point I'm trying to make El-Phil is history for them did not bring about the call for democracy or republic until long after the Icaran Empire left the sol system and by then no Icarans were around to think about "Hmm Democracy?"

Our idea of sainthood btw requires someone to be dead Theirs does not so your argument there is flawed.

El_Phil you have grown up in a society where "Free will" generally means the right to question everything everyone else does and then moan about it as much as you want if you want or praise it as much as you want if you want.

Icarans grew up in a world where free will means you get to live your life for the most part as you see fit except that you follow a government that you were raised to beleive in and follow and defend.

Look at it this way the average Icaran is better educated then the average American, Canadian or Japanese, they always have the option of finding a job (even if it means joining the military)and they know that unless the seriously screw up and break the law they won't even have to worry about the government beyond paying taxes and possibly being drafted in times of war.

They aren't brutally opressed in every facet of life (unless they rebel and I doubt the US would take kindly to rebels either) they generally get to go where they want within their province (they do require passports to cross into other provinces) and do what they want.
They even have a freedom of religion (as long as it is one of the legal ones which are not state regulated) and in some extent freedom of press.

The average Icaran would feel safe because crime is punished with absolutely no appeal, and their police are better equipped and better trained then any we could match. Thus their streets are safe.
Anyone who even kidnaps a child (unless it is a parent and for rare circumstances) is hung in public so people aren't as afraid of letting their children play outside.

You don't seem to realize El_Phil that life inside the Empire is fairly good by our standards, so they don't have many of the freedom's we do but you can't miss what you never had in the first place can you? Especially when you're entire culture beleives that those freedoms are dangerous.

And there is nothing wrong with a culture that emphasizes community good over personal greed and self interest. Of course they compete with one another in the work place and in sports and the like but when it comes to the important stuff they are there for one another and they know they can count on their neighbors.

You automatically seem to assume that there are things like "thought police" roaming the streets beating people up and this simply isn't so.


And when it comes down to your other arguments again it's from the point of someone raised in a culture where we elect people and still wonder why the hell they are in charge lol I mean you know how many people VOTE for a politico and then turn around and go "Who put them in charge?"

I'm sure there would be Icarans wondering "Why are they in charge?" but they are the population that would do that even if they had elected the folks in the first place.

Oh and BTW most Nobles are not "born" to position most of the time they are selected by the Praetor and the Five High Lords (who are the only nobles born to rank). There ARE nobles born to rank but only when it is a family trait to excel in that given position.

In fact one of the reasons the Empire does absorb other countries relatively easily is that it selects the least rebelious leaders of that nation and makes them the local government, which has caused rebellions but has for the most part led people to be more peaceful in transition because it is someone they already know and trust.


Of course after 6,000 years of existance there have been dozens of rebellions, riots and border wars but for the most part the average Icaran is loyal because they have no reason not to be, and after a generation or so has passed even "new provinces" would start to see the major benefits of being a part of Icara and would likely be willing to go with the flow.

I mean El_Phil the idea of anything BUT a heredetary rulership is relatively newborn to THIS world, and theirs has had none of the major historic events that even got our ancestors thinking of true democracy and republic.

I mean I hate to break it to you but not even America rebelled because of the British Monarchy they rebelled because they were a pampered pet that got told they'd need to start paying taxes on par with the rest of England and they didn't like it. lol

"An unelected hereditary quasi-religious absolute and un-questionable leader. Possibly the worst sort of goverment I can imagine. "

And here's what an Icaran would say.

"An elected rich SOB who uses smeer campaigns and political double talk to reach officer, and makes promises he's not legally required to keep? And a Nation that practically forbids any form of religious expression in government Oh my God I can't imagine a worse form of government."

We tend to think along the lines that "we're right everyone else is doomed to failure and wrong." they simply have a different culture that beleives in a government we don't and the whole POINT of Icara is to take a look at humans who grew up differently from us and have faced threats we can't imagine that have shaped them differently then us.

Beleive it or not El_Phil even today there are governments that have Born leaders (there are also tribes that have born leaders though these barely count) and are perfectly happy.

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Old October 13th, 2005, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

El_Phil writes: "But someone gets exploited."

A "low" wage isn't exploitation if a worker is being paid approximately what he's worth to his employer. Assuming a bell curve for human abilities, a "fair" economic system would actually be expected to include low wages as well as high. If the system permits workers to climb the economic ladder (e.g. no castes), I don't see a lot of discontent over economic issues.

El_Phil doubts the "divine right of kings" as a stabilizing factor, yet I think he underestimates the power of religion. Historically, true believers have suffered martyrdom, fought terrible wars, and happily executed suicide missions in the name of their deities. A political leader who also embodies the religious faith of his people has gone a long way toward solidifying his power.

Given the proper tradition and indoctrination, I don't see discontent rising to the levels El_Phil seems to expect. Up until the end of World War II Japan was solidly behind its government and god-emperor, despite its defeats and the terrible suffering of its people. Suicide became a standard way of waging war, and both soldiers and civilians routinely committed suicide to avoid capture. If this kind of system could co-exist with major democratic nations, couldn't the Icaran system be even more successful in an alternate world that may never have produced Athenian democracy or the Roman republic?

I do have my own doubts about Starhawk's premises; for example I don't see how the "religious freedom" he mentions can be consistent with the semi-divine status of the Praetor--the last thing you want is any hint whatsoever that the state religion may be wrong. I'm also wary of using the word "crusade" in a world that may never have seen the Crusades, or even Islam and Christianity. And I don't like the idea that the "military" can remove nobles--without absolute civilian control of the military, the "banana republic" syndrome is all too likely.

But I do think that religion, indoctrination, and prosperity are plausible as a basis for government stability and longevity. And I like the idea that the Icaran state has "reinvented" itself a couple times along the way--a series of "successor states" to me makes more sense than one immortal empire. With a little more work on the checks and balances, Starhawk may soon have himself a nice little fictional society.
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Old October 13th, 2005, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

Well in reference to the military removing nobles, Vice or Star Admirals are actually given rank "Noble" which is why William Ross and Yu Lin suddenly went from "William Ross" to "Lord Admiral" and Yu Lin became "Admiral Lady".
The military is given limited judiciary power over nobles when it comes to them disobeying the armed forces advice leading to the deaths of civilians. OR if they begin forming a private military. Both of which are the fast lane to the end of a rope.

As far as the "religious freedoms" you notice I said "Legal Religions" right the only really Legal Religions are "The Path" (i.e state religion) and Buddihsm (and that's mainly because the ESS had to be incorporated and since the bulk of Asia is Buddist you can't outlaw their religion wholesale).

There are small enclaves of other religions such as Hindu and Islam but they are few and far between and tend to avoid government scutiny by not getting involved in politics or anything that would make them look like a threat.


Crusade:

often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.
A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.
A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. See Synonyms at campaign.

I am sort of opting for #3's description since #1 and #2 are irrelevent as the Icarans took over Rome long before the formation of the papacy so "No smoka, no popa".

If you have any other ideas for what to call these wars of conquest (and no not wars of conquest ) then I'd be more then happy to read them.


Oh and as far as government loyalty and the like goes well I see it this way Icara is meaner then the US but nicer than Nazi Germany and Japan (WWII) and quite frankly most of the Islamic states and if people can happily jump in line with these regimes I'm pretty sure there would be relative stability for Icara.


Oh and BTW I worked on a rough "Imperial Timeline" as in tracking "Dynasties".

It's pretty much like this:

(Dawn of History)
Icaran Principality (destroyed in effect by Sparta)

Icaran Empire (Effectively ends in the year the first Lunar colony is founded)

Icaran Solar Empire (slight political reforms to deal with non-Terra provinces) (later destroyed by UN forces and forced to evacuate Sol, first encounter with an unstable warp point)

New Icaran Empire (Icara, Norvor system- effectively ceases to exist when the ESS population is finally merged)

Icaran Royal Empire (What we see in the era of my fan fic, lasts a thousand years and effectively ceases to exist for reasons I wont state here)

Second Icaran Royal Empire (Reformed in Novor on the fortress world of New Icara effectively reunifies the Empire over the next fifteen centuries)


Basically yeah "Icara" has survived millenia and by time we hit the Second Royal Empire we are looking at about 9,000 years. But the Empire has changed time and again.
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Old October 13th, 2005, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

Nobles: Ah, the military has authority over nobles in the military . OK.

Religious "freedom" and "legal" religions: In other words, everyone has the "freedom" to share the state's approved beliefs, or else. Sounds like an analogue of George Orwell made it into this alternate reality.

Crusade: It's not the concept, but the word itself that I question. The word is derived from specific actions that probably didn't occur in the Icaran reality (although I notice Islam seems to have slipped in). The best translation to 21st Century English may indeed be "crusade", but the Icaran term itself would probably have nothing to do with Christian symbolism, i.e. a cross. As an alternative I'd suggest "Wars of Liberation", as in "The Phong Liberation" and so on.
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Old October 13th, 2005, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

Hmmm that has a ring to it "Phong Liberation" I like that

Well yeah considering Icarans don't speak English I guess translations from terminology may not even carry over into English.

As far as Islam "slipping" in well Icara took generations to reach the Mideast so the locals had plenty of time to get into the "swing" of things with Islam before Icara showed up and quashed the local governments.

As far as the "freedom" to beleive in the state religions well like I said as long as you stay under the "religious radar" your not messed with, but if you run around spouting fundamentalist Islam (as is currently seen in the extremeist arabs) you'd end up on the wrong side of a stun batton before being dragged in to have a chat with a shadow dagger. Cults are just plain hunted down by the local authorities and it's pretty much up to the Provincial government what they do with the members, though Imperial law dictates the immediate execution of the leader.

[edit]Oh and forgive my ignorance but who is Orwell? is he the guy who wrote Animal farm?[/edit]
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"If men build things to look like our penis such as towers and ships does that mean female achitects represent women having penis envy?"
A line that made me chuckle, I can't remember where I heard it I just know it made me laugh.

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Old October 14th, 2005, 05:13 AM
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Default Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

Quote:
Oh and forgive my ignorance but who is Orwell? is he the guy who wrote Animal farm?
*gawp*

OK, ignorance forgiven.

Yes he is the guy who wrote Animal Farm. He is also the guy who wrote 1984.

Orwell is very important, in literary terms, particularly in the kind of speculative alternate-reality totalitarian-regime-construction & maintenence fiction you are looking at. I'd throughly recommend you read some of his stuff. (by "some of his stuff" I mean "at least 1984") Even if you find nothing in his works that you feel inspired by for your own writing, at least you'll understand what people are talking about when they compare Icara to Oceania. And they will, if your own writing is any good.

About Gerorge Orwell.
Don't read the wikipedia entries on the actual books, BTW. They are full of spoilers. Read the books instead/ first.

1984 is not only a monumentally important book: It's also a bloody good book. In fact it's one of the most gripping novels I've ever read, and I've read a lot of them. Animal farm is fascinating as a historical metaphor but as a novel it doesn't compare to 1984. It's still well worth a read, but it's not 1984.

The film 1984 (the one with John Hurt and the Eurythmics soundtrack) is a respectable interpretation of the story, but read the book first. The film will make you go cold and probably give you nightmares, but the book will leave you awake night after night, staring into bleak nothingness at 3am as you sit up in bed hugging your knees, shivering, rocking and babbling incoherently.

Aside: My older brother Dave signs all his text messages to me "1984". Big Brother. Get it?
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Old October 14th, 2005, 05:16 AM
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Default Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o

Quote:
Oh and forgive my ignorance but who is Orwell? is he the guy who wrote Animal farm?
I tried to read 1984 in 1994 but found it to be to... how shall I put it... boring to read at the time. I think I read like two chapters and never went back. Not to worry I also did that with one of Tom Clancy's books....
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