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  #1  
Old March 5th, 2006, 02:14 PM

narwan narwan is offline
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Default Re: Riflemen have too much ammo

Soviet riflemen actually had 4 magazines, 1 in the weapon and 3 spares. Times 30 is 120 rounds. The ammo load reflects single round fire for rifle types. If it is supposed to reflect bursts, I guess the ammo load should indeed be reduced.

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  #2  
Old March 5th, 2006, 04:16 PM

Mustang Mustang is offline
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Default Re: Riflemen have too much ammo

It may be a game, but we try to make it fairly realistic- that's one of the big things about the entire Steel Panthers series. And giving riflemen hours of ammunition is a gross corruption of reality.
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  #3  
Old March 5th, 2006, 05:01 PM

Captain_Cruft Captain_Cruft is offline
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Default Re: Riflemen have too much ammo

This is an OOB issue, nothing to do with the game engine.

You can make your own OOBs with realistic infantry ammo capacities.
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  #4  
Old March 5th, 2006, 05:10 PM
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hoplitis hoplitis is offline
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Default Re: Riflemen have too much ammo

From the Mobhack manual, and in reference to what the ammo load out is: "HE - number of HE engagement opportunities this weapon has". I don't know if, for the main inf rifle, this means single bullets or a 3-5 bullet short (semi automatic) burst . Keep in mind that in actual combat situations many units in many armies have some spare ammo around and that "playability" maybe also a factor (as junk2drive suggested). In any case ammo loadout is an adjustable parameter so you can easily recreate "low ammo situations".

BTW most USA, USMC and Russia inf squads have 80-90 ammo points. Lighter inf maybe about 50-60.
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  #5  
Old March 6th, 2006, 04:42 AM
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PlasmaKrab PlasmaKrab is offline
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Default Re: Riflemen have too much ammo

Hoplitis is right about infantry having more ammmo available than the bare orbats suggest at first sight. Not because regulations allow you to carry only 4 magazines plus 32 to 56 spare rounds in sealed pouches for or total weight of less than 7.45lb or such, that you rifleman will not take the initiative to lug on some more if it can save your life on the field.
Plus, IRL, mechanized/motorized units tend to store large amounts of ammo (if not actual spare weapons) in their carriers. This is particularly true of AT and ATGM teams some of which have been criticized for carrying incredibly high loadouts in game.
Since the game doesn't allow for stored spare ammo for single units (which would be quite a waste of time IMHO), that farther load has to be reflected in the infantry unit's loadout itself. QED.
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  #6  
Old March 6th, 2006, 02:13 PM

Mustang Mustang is offline
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Default Re: Riflemen have too much ammo

If each infantryman gets 5 shots per turn on his rifle, let's assume that each HE unit represents 1/5th of what an infantrymen fires in one turn (3 minutes). Maybe a 3-round burst. 80 ammo points equals 400 rounds per rifle, so I guess you might be right about Western troops that fire ammo conservatively and have plenty of resupply. But this does not hold true for third world (such as Soviet) troops, which typically offload whole magazines on full automatic, and are trained to dismount from their vehicle and charge toward the enemy positions. Not only would they run out of ammo quickly, but they wouldn't return to their APC to rearm. So these troops would have serious problems with ammo supply.

As for playability, I don't know what you guys think, but I like realism above all else.
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  #7  
Old March 6th, 2006, 06:12 PM

Cameronius Cameronius is offline
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Default Re: Riflemen have too much ammo

Mustang, I personally would not include the Soviet army in the ranks of third world armies. Conscripts, yes. But trained conscripts. Soviet infantry, even reserves were (and are) taught fire discipline and ammo conservation. An AK-47 is most effective firing single aimed shots and the selector lever does have a repetition setting. The beauty of the game is that if you don't like it you can change it yourself. If you want to use a custom OOB in PBEM than just agree with your opponent on the parameters.
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  #8  
Old March 7th, 2006, 04:08 AM

Marek_Tucan Marek_Tucan is offline
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Default Re: Riflemen have too much ammo

While it is true my former classmate, now studying the Military University of Medicine, was issued three magasines for his vz.58 rifle during the training (and as he volunteered to be scout the others have asked him to leave two mags behind as he will anyway be killed before he can use them in MILES training - well, he wasn't;o)) OTOH I recall reading a Vietnam veteran's account where he stated he carried about 600 rounds of 5.56mm ammo plus a 50-rounf belt for M-60. Comat loads tend to be higher than the peacetime ones IMHO.
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  #9  
Old March 7th, 2006, 07:45 AM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: Riflemen have too much ammo

If a move represents abot 1.5 minutes, then assuming an hour of fighting that would be 40 moves solid continuous firing.

Now, assuming a full 6 shot opportunities per move were taken, then that would be 6*40=240 Fire opportunities.

Infantry typically have 60 to 90 shot opportunities, so will be "dry" after about a half game hour of solid all-out firing, which is not unrealistic.

http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/vietnam/longtan.html
- The Australians made contact at 4.08pm and were calling for ammo resupply at 5.0pm.

( http://members.tripod.com/sitrep1/cav05b.htm gives another account of Long Tan, from the cavalry's point of view.)

As many have pointed out - should you think the loads are unrealistic, you have Mobhack or the scenario editor at your disposal.

Cheers
Andy
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  #10  
Old March 9th, 2006, 10:11 AM
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SGTGunn SGTGunn is offline
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Default Re: Riflemen have too much ammo

I can speak from experience that they typical US soldier tends to carry far more ammo than his basic load. Basic load for the M-4/M16 is 210 rounds - 7 30 round magaizines. It is not unusual to see a rifleman carrying nearly double that amount. When the US Army changed it's load bearing equipment from the old LCE pistol belt & harness to the the newer load bearing vest, many soldiers kept the pistol belt mounted ammo pouches allowing them to carry a total of 13 30 round magazines (normally only loaded with 28 rounds each). More ammo is carried "loose" in rucksacks/buttpacks or assault packs. A SAW gunner might carry between 500-800 rounds of ammo (a 100-200 round belt in the gun, and 2-3 additional 200 round belts) with additional 200 round belts doled out among his squad mates. Additional 100 belts of 7.62 for the M60/M240, 60mm mortar rounds, Dragon/Javilen rounds, and 40mm grenades are also frequently spread out among the platoon. On top of that add M-72/AT-4's, Frags, Smoke Grenades, Claymores, C-4 and other demo and you've got a veritbale walking arsenal. =) Typical combat loads can approach 100lbs - even more for the poor bastards carrying crew served weapons (MMGs, mortars, AT weapons). Ideally such heavy loads are for the "approach" march, and will be dropped at an objective rally point, and necessities (ammo, water, specific mission essential gear) will be transfered to assault packs/buttpacks/LBVs for the attack/raid/patrol etc. Mechie types just leave the excess ammo & snivel gear in the track.

Adrian
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