Bug in AI buys?

[snake]

Perhaps the problem in the buy lies in the fact one can select a type of unit without restriction.
In the "Other" steel panthers game, there is a 'rarity' factor that doesn't allow a player to select all the same equipment. In other words Flak 88 guns can be purchased but only so many like 1 or 2 batteries and then the selection is greyed out.

I bring this up because of a long campaign mission. Germany Delay versus Great Britain Advance in June 1940 in the Balkans.
My German force value was 4500 points. The British got 9740 points as close as I can tell BUT......
He bought 69 MATILDA II tanks!!!! That's ridiculous. He also had 2 Spitfires, 8 2pdr AT's, 6 3" mortars, 9 40mm Bofors, 3 25 PDR art, and 8 4.5" art.
He also had: 3 A13, 3 A9, 14 Armored cars, 10 Dingos, 20 Marr-Herringtons, and 4 Valentine II's.
He also had 200 units of infantry.

So the problem in the buy seems to be that there isn't any limits on equipment. A player or AI could easily substitute more Matilda II's for some of that other stuff.

This is sort of the problem I had with the Belgians getting so many units because they only bought 1 basic type of infantry and 'covered' the map with men.

In a meeting engagement with France, I faced 40 Char bis, 19 H-39, 15 Somoa, 6 Char D2 and 270 other units including over 30 indirect art fire units. I don't think 46 Char tanks is realistic either.

It would be like the Russians facing nothing but Tiger tanks and Brandenburgers in a Russian campaign mission. That kind of equipment just wasn't mass produced but the AI purchase routine isn't bound by any rarity factors as far as I can tell.

Perhaps all units, like radios, should have a rarity factor during the purchase routine to prevent selections like this.

[Mobhack]

AI rarity in picking troops is already covered with the radio code. See the mobhack help for details.

Cheers
Andy

[narwan]

snake said:
In a meeting engagement with France, I faced 40 Char bis, 19 H-39, 15 Somoa, 6 Char D2 and 270 other units including over 30 indirect art fire units. I don't think 46 Char tanks is realistic either.

CharB1's were concentrated in formations (although perhaps not always). Here you see the OB of the french armored formations in 5/40:
http://perso.infonie.fr/enpointe/dcr.html

The DCR's each had 2 battallions of 34 B1's each. So 46 Chars is not unrealistic as it is only 2/3 of the total number in a heavy half-brigade. At best facing 46 is not likely, but certainly possible.
Also see scenario 277 which is based on historical events.

Narwan

[Charles22]

The thing we have to remember about this game is that it's not meant to be a force representing the "average force" such that every unit represents 100 or 1000 or the real life units.

No, the truth of the matter is that you have a special force here that meetes it's enemy on largely equal terms (apart from the mission type). By equal terms I eman the enemy attacks or defends with the sam points as you always will. If you run into a high concentration of a unit which wasn't available in very high quantities, then and only then should there be a problem of sorts.

A good general rule of thumb to looking at this sort of situation is to remember what divisions usually carried. Most divisions had at least 25-50 tanks to a regiment, so if you see that sort of concentration of a tank that was usually rare, it's not really that rare when you consider that most AFV's didn't get thrown about in penny packets. By that I mean they didn't give every divison their own Tiger tank. So while it may seem ratio-wise that 30 Tigers are too high a number for the enemy, remember that it was normal for them to be grouped together like that, though they may not had been attacking all at the same time.

In a game of SPWAW once, I fought over 150 French tanks, including 110 S-35's! I had 30-40 tanks maximum with only 2 88's. Fortunately for me I inflicted enough damage on his advance that the French surrendered before he did too much damage to me and I had a decisive victory. Another 5-10 turns and I would've lost objectives and turned into dog meat. That's one advantage to striking the enemy early on with some long range fire in that you might be going against an enemy that has low enough morale that it will break. I don't think I've ever seen this sort of thing happen in SPWW2, and in SPWAW's case only once or twice.

[snake]

Charles,
Well, the very next mission against GB was a meeting engagement and guess what? Yep, almost all Matilda II tanks again. That's now 4 in a row counting 1 French nothing but char bis buy.
In fact, the AI bought 35 Tanks. 3 A13, 4 Valentines and 28 Matilda II's. There were also 16 light varients plus cars and the usual 9 40mm, 8 25 pdr, 2 4.5" and 4 3" artillery sections. The rest of the 175 units was rifle sections - no transport.
So I'm not sure this rarity thing is working regardless of points available?! BTW my force value was 3960.

As a side note, I turned down art effectiveness to 10% while I wait for the patch to fix indirect fire top hits but it didn't make any difference that I can tell. The art falls near my armor - boom - armor gone. But at least I can do the same to him!

[DRG]

A "Germany Delay versus Great Britain Advance in June 1940" with Germany having 4500 points should give the Brit AI close to 8940-8950 points. How did you calculate 9740 ?

When I set up a generated battle with GB advancing on Germany with Germany having 4500 points as the delaying force I see the Brit AI getting a lot of A13's and A9's and in the four battles I set up not one Matilda 2.

I'd like to get to the bottom of this problem but I need to know where your numbers are coming from

Attach a save game.

Don

[Mobhack]

June 1940 is in France 40, and the only matilda 2s you will see is if the mixed matilda 1&2 coy is bought (rare). And it is mainly matilda 1.

Perhaps the original poster is mixing up Matilda 1 (little thing with a MG only) with matilda 2 (big brute with a 2 pounder)?. Or - he is mixing up 1941 (desert) with 1940 (France)?.

If it is the desert - matildas in 41 are reasonably common, as there were many in the RTR regiments. (They even made it to Malta - I have seen a picture of one being used to tow a pranged early-model blenheim off a runway.)


New EXE changes
AI pick has been changed for the new EXE to make cruisers more common vs GE in 41, and in 40 and 41, to use A10 heavies (sic ! - these have been changed to "light infantry tank" class in thier own formations. Were reasonably common in france 40, early desert war, and Greece. Dates also changed for A10 - were only in service from 39.

Also changed it to be more cruiser oriented vs Italy to 42, as the Italians have a real bad time with Matildas and Valentines with only the 47mm gun. (need the 75mm AA gun, which is big, and has limited AP ammo).

The UK OOB now has the AT-roled 25 pounder, which it will buy in the defence in the early desert war period.

All this should make playing vs the UK easier in 41 as GE and IT.

The Indians still rely pretty much on Matildas (the Indian divisions usually had UK RTR regiments attached - if the ID tags are on, you will see these have UK flags) and the Australians may use captured M13-40 sometimes.

Cheers
Andy

[snake]

OK fans,
Now it's 5 missions in a row. My next meeting engagement with GB back in the Balkans in April 1941 sees me facing all Matilda II tanks again with some Valentine's thrown in.

It is April 1941 in the Balkans against GB in a meeting engagement. Long campaign on an 80X80 map with my German force at 3968 points.

Andy,

No, these are all MATILDA II tanks - have never seen the Matilda I yet with the TMG. These all have 2 pdr AT weapons and MG's. A few are the CS version with 3" howitzers. This buy is a little better (more realistic) than the previous ones but it's now 41 and not 40.

It is 1941 in this mission but as I've said, all the previous were in 1940. In fact, I'm a little surprised the long campaign skipped almost 10 months with a 200 mission limit entered at the start.

Yay, for the future EXE fixes - thanks!

Charles,
I got my figure of purchase points for the AI by starting a campaign as GB and buying all the equipment, as near as I could, that I've seen in my missions.
That is my issue, I could have bought all Matilda II tanks in Sept 39 as the GB player right from a long campaign start and just kept buying them - they never greyed out or were not available.
That means the rarity issue is not being factored in if I can do that. And I assume the AI can as well.

Here is the save game of the mission currently in play (Meeting engagement against GB in Balkans - my 5th against mostly heavy armor only in a row). I was smart enough to buy 4 extra 88's in anticipation so I'm doing well in this one picking the slow monsters off and close assault has been VERY LUCKY! I also set the Art to 10% and in this mission, at least, it seems to have lessened the top hit kill effect on armor to a more reasonable level - I've only lost a few instead of everybody in the blast radius all the time.

EDIT: OK, finished the mission - final count - 31 Matilda II's, 8 Valentines, 15 Diamler A/C, 2 RR A/C, 5 dingo, 4 2pdr portee, 3 A9, 5 3", 9 40mm bofors, 2 25pdr troops and the balance of 170 units was rifle sections. A reasonable force value for the points but it should have been many more cruisers and a few Matildas.

Thanks for listening,
Snake

[Charles22]

snake said:
Charles,
Well, the very next mission against GB was a meeting engagement and guess what? Yep, almost all Matilda II tanks again. That's now 4 in a row counting 1 French nothing but char bis buy.
In fact, the AI bought 35 Tanks. 3 A13, 4 Valentines and 28 Matilda II's. There were also 16 light varients plus cars and the usual 9 40mm, 8 25 pdr, 2 4.5" and 4 3" artillery sections. The rest of the 175 units was rifle sections - no transport.
So I'm not sure this rarity thing is working regardless of points available?! BTW my force value was 3960.

As a side note, I turned down art effectiveness to 10% while I wait for the patch to fix indirect fire top hits but it didn't make any difference that I can tell. The art falls near my armor - boom - armor gone. But at least I can do the same to him!

Considering that's only 28 Mati's that's entirely within regimental parameters. It just so happens that you're such a bad dude that the enemy is taking you more seriously .

What is the map size you have been playing on? I play with a 200X140, or so, map, and I don't have those problems, but then I haven't played this recent version but once so far and that was an offensive assault on my part. I either had 3,000 or 3,200 core points. Despite all the support given to such an assault, I only used only about 500pts worth. I'm just thinking that with a larger map and/or a somewhat smaller core, that the AI will shift his purchasing a bit.

The Mati of course is notorious for lack of speed, which in a larger map the AI may be much more reluctant to pick, however, I'm somewhat surprised, given the AI aptitude for dash in meeting engagements, that it picked that many anyway. I'm afraid you can't inflict enough damage on the Brits to make them surrender before the greatest part of your force is ripped to shreds. I'm afraid you're on your own, and it's time to fight to the last man .