Are we paying more for less?

[Talleyrand]

Valandil, you are quite the character lol.

[Tim Brooks]

Hi All!

Okay everyone lets take a deep breath.

I hope you are enjoying Dominions 3, regardless of how you feel about the price point we have set.

I have followed this forum topic on and off over the last few days, as well as a similar discussion on another board. I am going to break my own rule and talk a little about why we have priced Dominions 3 the way we did. I usually don't get into these discussions as there is no win here. Some will feel the game is overpriced, and nothing I say will change that. Now having said that...

Dominions II was priced at $49.95, and we had a similar discussion going on at the time we released it with regard to pricing. Some people think that niche products, developed on shoestring budgets should be priced as shareware, even though we have all the costs that a major publisher has - maybe just not on the same scale - and the developer on a per man basis probably puts in more hours than a developer of any major title on a per man basis. Well, Shrapnel and Illwinter survived those discussions, and Dominions II was a success, becoming one of our top three selling games ever.

Now onto Dominions 3. We had a huge decision to make. We could either follow the path of Dominions II and print a manual on par with the Dominions II manual, or take the manual up a notch. Doing a Dominions II style manual would have probably left the price point the same; taking things up a notch would mean a price increase. Due to the overwhelming feedback from the true fans of Dominions and those who didn't buy or didn't enjoy the game (as first timers), we felt a much improved manual would benefit everyone who we considered our target customer. We also hoped that it would lead to additional sales, but that is really something that only time will tell - and it is way too early to make that call.

As some of you are aware, Illwinter hired Bruce Geryk to write the manual, and we supported the decision to make the manual a 200 page 'book'. Due to the quality work Bruce gave us and knowing that we didn't want to cut out anything, we ended up with a manual of almost 300 pages. Then, we decided, due to the large amount of reference materials, to upgrade the manual binding to coil binding, so that it could lay flat. BTW, the price of the last 100 pages and the coil binding doubled the cost of the manual over the 200 page manual we had originally envisioned. Now add to that the cost of the printer shipping to us manuals that are twice the weight of the Dominions II manual and storage costs of manuals that take up twice the space...

Can you see where I am heading? I think that is enough said. Just know, that Shrapnel Games and Illwinter will make less per copy on Dominions 3 than we did on Dominions 2, even with the $5.00 increase. So, to make the same money we have to sell many more copies and as I said earlier, we are way too early into the release to know if this decision will pay divdends.

We didn't set the price of Dominions 3 based on what we thought the market would bear or to make huge profits or to insult potential customers. We set the price based on economics of costs. And if I had known the manual would end up at 300 pages with coil binding I would have set the price at $59.95.

We appreciate those of you who have bought Dominions 3 and those that have taken the time to try the demo. To those of you who think the price is too high, maybe this isn't the game for you. We don't want anyone leaving our store feeling that we have taken advantage of you.

Thanks for listening.

[Bloodstar2]

We appreciate those of you who have bought Dominions 3 and those that have taken the time to try the demo. To those of you who think the price is too high, maybe this isn't the game for you. We don't anyone leaving our store feeling that we have taken advantage of you.

Thanks for listening.

OK, thank you. That is nice and clear reasoning. I will aceept your words. I am not entirely convinced and I still support idea of cheaper games - bigger audience but whatever. I will not spoil the party.

Will try to discuss game related thing when I get the game.


Mario

[Boron]

Hm i have not yet gotten my copy, so i cannot yet judge about the quality of the manual.
But because there is the option of a digital manual, best case e.g. as word or html document, and the charts etc. sortable as e.g. excel-files i can state my opinion nontheless i think.

I am sure that Bruce did a fantastic manual. But if it would be digital as i said it would be even a bit better imho.

Dom 2 had after a while excellent fanmade digital documentation.
And my personal opinion for any hardcore strategy game is that the manual is only the basics, but most important for the learning process is nontheless discussion and play with other players and guides by veteran players.

So i personally would be happier with a digital manual if i would have to pay less then.

You just stated that you earn less per sold copy of Dom3 than per sold copy of Dom2 because of the additional costs from the manual.
But imho those 55$ are really a bit too much above the magical 50$/50€ border, so i oracle that Dom3 will bring you less profit than Dom2.

If you had offered 2 versions of Dom3 for purchase though i think every customer would have been content:
First version with a digital manual for e.g. 45$ and the second version as you offer it now with the printed in high quality manual for 60$ for those people who prefer to have a physical manual.

That is just my subjective opinion though and i hope that Dom3 sells better than Dom2 because imho both of you, Illwinter and Shrapnel, deserve success with Dom3 .

[Caduceus]

I'll be curious to see when/if Dominions 3 breaks Dominions 2 sales numbers.

[Theonlystd]

Boron said:
Hm i have not yet gotten my copy, so i cannot yet judge about the quality of the manual.
But because there is the option of a digital manual, best case e.g. as word or html document, and the charts etc. sortable as e.g. excel-files i can state my opinion nontheless i think.

I am sure that Bruce did a fantastic manual. But if it would be digital as i said it would be even a bit better imho.

Dom 2 had after a while excellent fanmade digital documentation.
And my personal opinion for any hardcore strategy game is that the manual is only the basics, but most important for the learning process is nontheless discussion and play with other players and guides by veteran players.

So i personally would be happier with a digital manual if i would have to pay less then.

You just stated that you earn less per sold copy of Dom3 than per sold copy of Dom2 because of the additional costs from the manual.
But imho those 55$ are really a bit too much above the magical 50$/50€ border, so i oracle that Dom3 will bring you less profit than Dom2.

If you had offered 2 versions of Dom3 for purchase though i think every customer would have been content:
First version with a digital manual for e.g. 45$ and the second version as you offer it now with the printed in high quality manual for 60$ for those people who prefer to have a physical manual.

That is just my subjective opinion though and i hope that Dom3 sells better than Dom2 because imho both of you, Illwinter and Shrapnel, deserve success with Dom3 .

Aye i dont much care for manuals.. I can read a pdf as well as paper. I would of most definalty taken the cheaper version.

Now one of my friends i recently told about. Was over joyed at a spiral binded 300 page manual and plans on ordering soon.

2 versions would of been spiffy if the manual is what was costing so much.

[atul]

Boron said:
But imho those 55$ are really a bit too much above the magical 50$/50€ border,

And here's the funny bit. Thanks to the exchange rate, the current price of Dom3 + shipping amounts quite nicely to 50 euros. My visa bill for the pre-ordered game was below 50€, but the price for the one I ordered just last week will probably be quite near the magic number. Most of the new games in Finland cost in 50-70€ range, and this gets delivered home.

So, in addition of getting paid more wages (on average) you USians apparently pay less for your goods if $55 is something to complain. Silly people.

Here's hoping Shrapnel and Illwinter get what they deserve out of Dom3 sales (i.e. only positive stuff).