The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

geoschmo · #1 November 20th, 2001, 12:28 AM

20 neo-shippics makes for an extra 20 MB for the install. Zipped up for download that would add 6MB to the mod size. For Devnull that quadruples the size for the download.

I know the plan is to have a batch file pic converter or something. I guess I am just concerned that we are asking for trouble with players that just want the mod and aren't worried about the new shipsets. They might not take the time to run the utility. This would cause errors, no?

If I include the new images in the generic folder in the download, I guess that will work. That would only add about 230 k to the zip file. That way if they don't run the utility for some reason it will just pull the generic Version of the images and they won't get an error.

Geoschmo

Suicide Junkie · #2 November 20th, 2001, 03:32 AM

quote:
20 neo-shippics makes for an extra 20 MB for the install. Zipped up for download that would add 6MB to the mod size. For Devnull that quadruples the size for the download.

How many races are you including with your mod?

Each installed shipset will be increased by 1MB, almost exactly. (1.035 MB).
I know that pictures are horrendous downloads. Even one shipset is roughly the same size as my P&N mod.

You definitely need to separate the mod+generic and the addon shipsets.
Especially since these shipsets will work under any mod, and you don't want to download the same thing three or four times, once with each mod.

quote:
BaseOutpost - BattleStation - Base between battestation and starbase

How about:
Warstation (space S., battle S., war S., starbase)
or SpaceFortress (Space St. -> SpaceFortress, Battle St. -> Starbase)

quote:
BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.

Logical name, I'd go for it.

quote:
Observer - Escort - 130 (built in cloak) - UM

I would have made use of the Drone image for this

.

quote:
Not sure of what is this. It seems to be used only in scenario editing making and not normally available for players. A picture wouldn't be necessary.

Yep.

quote:
ShipPic - Alternative pic (copy source) - simple description.

Note that it is very easy to have multiple, prioritzed sources.
So the program could first look for a worldshipsmall, then massivebaseship, then worldship medium, then worldship large before giving up and using the generic image.

Andr�s · #3 November 20th, 2001, 03:49 AM

A little over 1 mb more for each shipset, that means that if I wanted to upgrade every shipset I have installed (131) I would run out of disk space.

IIRC Devnull mod includes the 20 original races, only AI and no pics. S_J your program should be able to copy from the base race directory when called from inside a mod.

I agree 6 mb extra would make a mod too big, particularly if they are just repeated pictures.
Maybe I�m exaggerating, and not the 20 sizes I mentioned are necessary, they could be reduced to 12-15, without leaving out any important pic. But it would still be a lot of space.

Think they wouldn�t mind if extra pictures were actually new pictures, in fact they would be glad to have different sizes looking different.
That�s why we were thinking about a copying utility, and why Dogscoff suggested different distributing methods. I don�t think there will be a problem with people not running the copying utility. Many people will try to run the mod without running it before, I agree. But after they see an error will check in the readme that they need to run the utility.

geoschmo · #4 November 20th, 2001, 04:08 AM

Ok, I have a suggestion.

I can leave the mod the way it is, and include in the mod data dirctory a file called NeoVehicleSize.txt. This file will be identical to the regular mod VehicleSize file, but using the NeoStandard shippic names instead. Then we write the utility to copy all the bitmaps and copy the Neo file over the regular mod VehicleSize file.

For those people that want the neostandard for custom shipsets, it would be no extra work. This way the mod download size remains small, and people that aren't concerned with the custom shipsets don't have to hassle with it. Coming from a support background, I can tell you no matter how good your program is, someone is going to have a problem with it.

What do you guys think? This would remove my Last remaining reservations about what I think is a great idea overall.

One other thing. The utility will be writing the over the pic files in the mod directories, not the default SEIV directory right? Even though the pics are new pics and not overwriting exsisting files, we shouldn't be messing with peoples default directories.

Geoschmo

Andr�s · #5 November 20th, 2001, 04:16 AM

I like it alternative vehicle size files using standad and neo-standard pic sets. Maybe we can release a little file with sample shipsets and vehiclesizes files for different mods.

Maybe this will complicate the program too much, but could it look into the VehicleSizes.txt and only copy pictures that are referenced there?

quote:

quote:
BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.

Logical name, I'd go for it.

Question here was do we need another picture for this? Or Super Monitors should use baseship pictures just like the normal Monitor?

[This message has been edited by Andr�s Lescano (edited 20 November 2001).]

Suicide Junkie · #6 November 20th, 2001, 06:26 AM

quote:
I can leave the mod the way it is, and include in the mod data dirctory a file called NeoVehicleSize.txt. This file will be identical to the regular mod VehicleSize file, but using the NeoStandard shippic names instead. Then we write the utility to copy all the bitmaps and copy the Neo file over the regular mod VehicleSize file.

Excellent Idea. The Last line of the utility can copy the vehiclesize to a backup, then write over it with NSVS.txt.

quote:
One other thing. The utility will be writing the over the pic files in the mod directories, not the default SEIV directory right? Even though the pics are new pics and not overwriting exsisting files, we shouldn't be messing with peoples default directories.

The utility will never overwrite an existing file, except maybe the vehiclesize.txt as above.

If that's not enough, run it from the mod folder, and I'll have it look into the .\pictures\races folder and upgrade all the races it finds.

Now there is still the question of space. If we drag copies of all the races in the default directory out into mod folders, we'll have Andr�s problem multiplied by the number of mods

quote:
A little over 1 mb more for each shipset, that means that if I wanted to upgrade every shipset I have installed (131) I would run out of disk space.

quote:
Maybe this will complicate the program too much, but could it look into the VehicleSizes.txt and only copy pictures that are referenced there?

Better yet (and simpler, too), I could just read from a mod-specific .INI file (a subset of our full .INI, leaving out some image definitions). The modder could specify which of the standard's images are required, and also which images to take as secondary choices.
This might weaken the standard a bit, since modders could define their own set of required images, but shipsets would be coming out with standard images, and it would be a bit of work to alter on your own. (Deleting sections that don't apply to your mod is easy, but adding a few new ones takes more time)

Decision time.

dogscoff · #7 November 20th, 2001, 12:19 PM

Wow... looks like you guys sorted it all out while I was asleep. Nice one=-) Not much to add, since I agree with just about everything suggested since I Last posted. A few things though:

A>Configuration:
I've studied Andres' list and I am in almost complete agreement. Here is the list I think we should use.
1>Scout: Although it's not in any of the discussed mods, it seems popular (Already mentioned on this thread) and could be used for the UM Observer.
2>Corvette
3>DestroyerHeavy
4>CruiserHeavy
5>Dreadnought
6>Baseship
7>BaseshipHeavy: Andres had this question marked. I think there is plenty of space between base ship and worldship. As well as Devnullmod, ZeroAdunn's mod uses a ship of this type.
8>WorldShipSmall
9>WorldShipMedium
10>WorldShipLarge
11>ResourceShip: See number 12 for reason behind name change.
12>ResourceStation: I think in Devnullmod this is actually a station rather than a ship, so I propose this name rather than ResourceShipLarge. Also, we have to consider mods other than the ones discussed here (Including future mods). They may well prefer to have their mining hulls as stations rather than ships.
13>CarrierTiny
14>CarrierMassive
15>BaseOutpost
16>ColonyShipLarge
17>TransportTiny
18>FighterHuge
19>FighterMassive
20>TroopInfantry: I think we should call it either TroopInfantry (For alphabetical reasons) or just Infantry (Most acurate description), rather than InfantryTroop as in Andres' post.
21>TroopHuge
22>StellarManipBarge: Andres had a question mark over this one. I think it should go in.

This 22-ship configuration will cover all the discussed mods nicely, and leave plenty of scope for other mods.

B>Although most race-specific Neo pics will be generated by the program and therefore identical to standard pics (ie Phong_FighterHuge will be a copy of Phong_FighterLarge) I am assuming that we will create a full set of Neo Generics, for those who don't run the program. I think we should definitely throw in that Jraenar pic and a few others at random as a sort of "bonus"=-)

C>Where should the NeoMaker utility put all of the extra files? I can appreciate the argument to leave default directories alone, but duplicating images into however many mod dirs is crazy.
How about putting them in the default directories but have an uninstall option?

D>I love the name neostandard, but wasn't there a guy on the forum called Neo? Or am I imagining him? Don't think I've heard from him in a while.

E>Distribution: So as I understand it the Neo-Standard will consist of a program (with supporting text & ini files) and maybe a few dozen pictures. That would make it what... half a meg when zipped? Should we put it in with each mod or distribute seperately, with each mod carrying just a neovehiclesize.txt or what?

F>Program: S_J - you could incorporate your piratepatcher program into it - have it do 2 jobs at once.

G>Pixelling: The Vikings would require another 12 images for the 22 ship configuration listed above. If we can agree a final configuration I'll get started on making the Vikings the first fully Neo-Standard compliant shipset as an example to everyone else=-) Then I'll need to talk nicely to Rollo about AIs for all these Neo compliant mods=-) I would have to share my time between that and work on the neo generics. Shouldn't be a problem.

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[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 20 November 2001).]