Conceptual Balance Mod 0.9

[DominionsFan]

I think that we all have to thank to qm, that he spent countless hours to make this CB mod. Right now I haven't tried it yet, but after I've read the changelog, there are some things what I like, and there are some things what I don't. For example: why was it needed to nerf the order scale? I don't understand it still. Make the sacred units more expensive, instead of nerfing the order scale. We cannot recruit countless number of troops anyways, since we won't have so many resources to do it...however we can use up the remaining gold to build forts for example.
Its a good thing that the growth from the growth scale incresaed, however maybe [to compensate to order scale nerf] we should get more income from the growth scale now?
People won't take death scale so often in blitz games at least.

[Nerfix]

I again echo Graeme. I apreciate qm's effort but I think he went into a very wrong direction with the mod.

The mod needed for the savegame is the streamers and standards one, so it shouldn't affect the game mechanics...but I did realize that on both occasions I was facing javeling armed infantry. I'll have to see more of what could have caused that weird combat behaviour.

[Twan]

I have the same feeling about many changes. Diversity should be the result of players choices with lots of good options, not of extremely pigeonholed nations and overnerfed magic, two things already too much used in dom3 IMO. I think I would prefer a mod buffing the weak paths (what is now possible with the new spell modding commands) and giving more possible strategies to each nation (adding ways to developp original magic choices instead of restricting more the possibilities). Anyway it may or not be the good direction for the cbmod, and another mod can be done for those (like me) prefering a more dom2-like game.

[Boron]

Twan said:
I have the same feeling about many changes. Diversity should be the result of players choices with lots of good options, not of extremely pigeonholed nations and overnerfed magic, two things already too much used in dom3 IMO.

The search spell nerf boosts rainbows, accashic record and sitesearching directly with mages.
Graeme said it is more MM to directly sitesearch, but imho directly sitesearching with a mage requires about the same effort as sitesearching with the remote 1 path search spells, maybe even less MM.

Twan said:
I think I would prefer a mod buffing the weak paths (what is now possible with the new spell modding commands) and giving more possible strategies to each nation (adding ways to developp original magic choices instead of restricting more the possibilities).

QM maybe nerfed some spells too much, mainly my beloved skelspam and probably bladewind too, but if you buff the weaker paths battlefield spells then this might have 2 cons:
- Magic doesn't feel different enough if nature/water/death/blood magic get stronger battlefield spells too
- Troops might become too useless by this change. In Dom2 troops were imho too useless usually, now in Dom3 they are still butchered by battlefield magic eventually, but they seem to have more niches and be more useful than in Dom2.

Graeme said that a mage has to be able to kill more troops than his cost, but imho this is not really true. Mages have other uses too. If mages with some research kill easily troop armies, then troop armies have no niche.

Currently the balance could roughly be seen as rock paper scissors balance imho:

Mages > SCs > Troops > Mages

This is generalizing too much of course, some spells counter troops very well like magma eruption, and "Mage SCs" like Dai Oni can defend vs. mages eventually with earthquake and rain of stones.

But in general at least in early and midgame it seems more rewarding in Dom3 to try a combined arms approach than it was in Dom2 were spending gold on troops almost felt like a waste of money.

Twan said:
Anyway it may or not be the good direction for the cbmod, and another mod can be done for those (like me) prefering a more dom2-like game.

Yeah a retro-mod that tries to make especially the middle age an exact copy of Dom2 might be cool too

[Nerfix]

The sitesearch nerf just brings more annoyance into the game as even having 2 picks in a path usualy signalizes some sort of specialization in the magic. Puttign them into 3 picks/path mages them extremely hard to cast for nations even specialized in their own magic. Caelum would need to use a High Seraph, Abysia an Anathemant Dragon and Agartha an Oracle!

Perhaps the only "issuos" site search spells are Dark Knowledge and that Astral probing spell, but those could be raised to 2 pick spells...or then just left alone.

I have a less radical aproach to mages than Graeme and QM. While I don't think that a Master Smith or an Oracle should be able to kill 14/40 units per combat round I think they should be able to do something else than cast Stoneskin or sit. Mages are expensive and the spells need DOUBLE the research from Dom 2. If you feel that a spell is too strong try something less radical than moving it up to high research levels or making it prohibtively expensive and annoyingly hard to use. In unmodded game the Pillar of Fire is a fine example. Sure it is a nice spell for Fire 2 but it is freaking Evocation 8, same level as army blaster spells and all that.

I really do apreciate QM's effort, but this is the equivalent of smaking around with the Nerf Stick while wearing Boots of Quickness and under influence of Astral Weapon...but failing to hit that Helhirdling which gleefuly charges into the ranks of helpless Earth and Air mages.

[Boron]

Nerfix said:
I really do apreciate QM's effort, but this is the equivalent of smaking around with the Nerf Stick while wearing Boots of Quickness and under influence of Astral Weapon...but failing to hit that Helhirdling which gleefuly charges into the ranks of helpless Earth and Air mages.

Helhirdings cost now 110 gold, that is almost a 50% price increase. It might still be too little, but at least they weren't left unnerfed .

I agree though that it is very questionable if extreme nerfing is a good approach. I am still undecided regarding this design decision. It has to be made when trying to make a balance mod though.

But theoretically someone could try to make most national troops extremely cheap and buff all the weak spells.
Probably this would add more options and might lead to a better mod. At least in theory this approach sounds worth a try at least imho.

Zen's and QM's CB mods all had a masochistic touch imho. But their Dom2 CB mod has nontheless been the best balance mod for Dom2 imho.

[Nerfix]

I'm not sure if culling some of the most obscenely overpowered stuff in Dom 2 really counts as "masochistic", especially when the mod boosted some unused stuff. I especially liked the changes to Sabbath and Hellfire. The Wraith Sword thing might come close.

[Arralen]

I dissent.

With most of qms mod, and with most of what has been said here - either pro or con.

Just for the records.

[Cainehill]

Regarding BladeWind, may I point out that Dom3 _already_ gave it (and a few other battlefield spells) a pretty big nerfing? It does _mundane_ damage, meaning that it's now useless as pissing in the wind for dealing with hordes of ethereal critters, which was imo its main niche in Dom2.

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
Graeme said it is more MM to directly sitesearch, but imho directly sitesearching with a mage requires about the same effort as sitesearching with the remote 1 path search spells, maybe even less MM.

If you want to sitesearch with a mage, you have to move him to a province, then remember for the next turn that he should search that province. You have to plan out a route that leads him to each province without having to backtrack over a province he's already been to, and then you don't even get to find all of the sites in the province. If you use spells you press shift+M, cast the spell, then ignore that mage until he stops casting it. The second is a lot more fun than the first.

- Troops might become too useless by this change.

By the time you've spent several thousand gold researching level 9 spells, troops should be mostly useless compared to mages, or else there was no point in spending that gold to research. Dom2 had the right idea about magic balance. DOM3 goes a little to far towards the AOW2 example, where your magic doesn't matter much compared to yor troops.

Graeme said that a mage has to be able to kill more troops than his cost, but imho this is not really true. Mages have other uses too. If mages with some research kill easily troop armies, then troop armies have no niche.

The majority of mages have absolutely no use beyond killing troops and researching. You need a half dozen mages at most for all of your ritual and forging needs, several dozen for researching, and the rest should be on the battlefield making up for the gold cost that all those researchers are costing you by killing large numbers of troops.

But in general at least in early and midgame it seems more rewarding in Dom3 to try a combined arms approach than it was in Dom2 were spending gold on troops almost felt like a waste of money.

And why would that be a bad thing? You have to make troops useless at some point, or else all the game becomes is wack a mole with armies. The most boring Dom2 multiplayer games I've been involved in are those with very difficult research and low magic. You spent the entire game pushing an army around without ever being able to force your opponents army to stand still in a pitched battle.