kwk 38 cannon or machinegun

[chuckfourth]

Hi Claus
I dont have an agenda, I have a valid point.
Lets have a look at your performance maybe you have an agenda?
You lead with a statement that all magazines are loaded with a mix of HE/AP
I ask for the relevant reference, you realise you have been caught out and refuse to give one. You have to be forced to come up with it. We have a look at the reference and find that you have twited the text to suit your purposes. ie your story is a bit different now isnt it, apparently they are only "generally" loaded with a HE/AP mix now. Well this is your opinion only. All we can say conclusively is that in one battalion in one campaign some vehicles used this mix when engageing AT guns, a far cry from your original claim. Seems you are prepared to go to some quite extraordinary lengths to "prove" your point.
I am not disputing that these weapons could or did fire bursts as you are well aware. What I am saying is that AFAIK other than increasing the HE hit value, the modeling changes put in place to model bursts consists of throwing 4 out of every 5 rounds out of the hatch before we go into battle. ie no provision has been made for shots wasted in bursts when aquiring a target of for multiple hits within a burst of AP, amongst other things. I am also saying that there is no need to model bursts the weapon is perfectly and accurately modeled if given single shots. Though it is somewhat underrated as once the target is aquired the rounds can be pumped into it fast enough so that the target returns far fewer shots than it receives.
Nor is the 5 round burst any sort of compromise, it is bursts only, the guns ability to fire single shots has been completely removed. A compromise would be what has been sugggested by Smersh, 30 rounds HE, 90 AP.
It would be a simple matter to have no magazine loaded and when a target appears stick the appropriate HE loaded or AP loaded magazine into the gun. This would give you twice the effect against any target other than an AT gun. or maybe you think thats not worth considering? Also the vehicle will often know what sort of target it is to engage before it engages it. ie can load the appropriate magazine.
Best Chuck.

[cbo]

chuckfourth said:
You lead with a statement that all magazines are loaded with a mix of HE/AP
I ask for the relevant reference, you realise you have been caught out and refuse to give one. You have to be forced to come up with it.

You are just trolling again, this time by flat out lying.

You asked for the reference and I gave it immidiatly in my 10/02/06 12:21 PM post as Jentz: "Panzertruppen.." vol. I. The fact that you were incapable of finding the right page by doing what I and the rest of has have to do - searching the text - is your problem, I'm afraid.

chuckfourth said:We have a look at the reference and find that you have twited the text to suit your purposes. ie your story is a bit different now isnt it, apparently they are only "generally" loaded with a HE/AP mix now. Well this is your opinion only. All we can say conclusively is that in one battalion in one campaign some vehicles used this mix when engageing AT guns, a far cry from your original claim.

It remains the only reference to how the magazines were loaded. That is a fact. Anything else is just speculation.

chuckfourth said:I am also saying that there is no need to model bursts the weapon is perfectly and accurately modeled if given single shots.

No, because it does not take into account that the magazines were loaded with both AP and HE (even if it was only one some occasions) and it it does not take into account that bursts were used also when firing AP. The issue here is not to make the 2cm KwK armed vehicles in the game as good as possible, it is to find a compromise that can deal with the limitations of the game and stil reflect the historical reality in a reasonable way.

chuckfourth said:It would be a simple matter to have no magazine loaded and when a target appears stick the appropriate HE loaded or AP loaded magazine into the gun. This would give you twice the effect against any target other than an AT gun. or maybe you think thats not worth considering? Also the vehicle will often know what sort of target it is to engage before it engages it. ie can load the appropriate magazine.

Sure, that would be possible.

A tank is spotted. The commander/gunner/loader grabs the magazine - lets assume that he knows exactly which magazines are where - pops it in, cocks the gun, aims his gun and fire. If the guns was already loaded with the AP/HE mix, he would just aim and fire.
Of course, things get even more interesting if you consider that anti-tank guns, particularily the small ones used in the Panzer IIs heyday, were often not seen until they fired. A hidden gun with a commander, gunner and loader would be able to get off a lot of shots while the commander/gunner/loader in the Panzer II was fiddling with his magazines.
Of course, if magazines where changed every time a new target presented itself, you would end up with a lot of half-filled magazines in the racks, never knowing how many shots you had available in each magazine. You would get a lot more magazine changes that way.

Doesn't sound particularily clever to me, but if you can document that it was done that way, I'm all ears.

In any case, to apply you suggestion to the game would require the ROF to reduced considerably for these vehicles to reflect the commander/gunner/loader constantly changing magazines.

Claus B

[Pyros]

Gentlemen,

I am considering to lock the thread if this evolves into a flame war, so please continue to behave like gentlemen and avoid personal attacks.

thank you,
Pyros

[cbo]

Pyros,

Since it is hard to respond to Chucks trolling posts without commenting on his misreading, non-reading and flat out lies with regards to what has already been posted, personal comments are a bit hard to avoid.

Since the powers-that-be are apparently willing to allow Chucks trolling, never commenting on it, but issues warnings whenever I respond, I guess my conclusion has to be that Chucks style is what you want, mine is not.

That is duly noted.

Claus B

[Pyros]

Claus,

First of all, I am a true neutral.

Secondly, I am not at all interested in the essence of the topic and I don't personally know neither you or Chuckfourth.

I only wish that the forum remains pleasant for everyone else.

If you or anyone else wish to debate on the subject you are welcome to do so but please avoid calling names.

cheers,
Pyros

[TheDesertFox]

chuckfourth said:
We have a look at the reference and find that you have twited the text to suit your purposes. ie your story is a bit different now isnt it, apparently they are only "generally" loaded with a HE/AP mix now.

Errm,

This is plain wrong. In the given reference (p.132 Jentz Panzertruppen Vol.1) it is clearly stated: "Magazines were loaded with a one to one ratio of Panzergranaten and Sprenggranaten."

How much clearer do you need it to be ?

cheers

[Pyros]

Gentlemen,

I apologise for posting the following inside this thread (because it may be off topic) but I strongly believe that it might help everyone involved to act accordingly:

copy/paste from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, most often in the form of posting inflammatory, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate messages.

The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument ad hominem.

Do not feed the trolls. Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives. Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities.

Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts — hence the often-seen warning "Please do not feed the troll", for which PDNFTT is a common initialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally argument against the person), personal attack or you-too argument, involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself. It is a logical fallacy.

Therefor I think that everyone is entitled to an opinion whether a person is "trolling" or not and if someone thinks that another person is actually "trolling" then the best thing to do is the following:

...the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts


cheers,
Pyros

p.s please don't reply to this post because there is no real reason to open a discussion (or an online "trial") whether someone is "trolling" or not. Have respect for everyone inside this forum and try to enjoy your time.

[chuckfourth]

Hi desert fox
I suggest you read the thread before posting. For your benefit Ill repeat what you seem not to have gathered as yet. Claus originally claimed that all magazines were loaded with a HE/AP mix he has since admitted that this is in fact incorrect.
Best Chuck.

[Mobhack]

chuckforth, the post you reply to actually points to the reference where Claus' point was proved.

I am in full agreement with both the responding posters (who happen to be long term members of the SP community and are well known for thier level of research in WW2 history).

I have already posted in this thread what you need to do with Mobhack to change your OOBs to suit your own point of view.

Now, I am really getting fed up of your pointless and repetitive circular arguments about trivia. You have already been warned about this behaviour before.

Consider this your final warning, chuckfourth. Please read and digest the board rules.

This thread will now be closed.

Andy