ME Ulm Vs Jotunheim advice wanted.

[Kalin]

I'm not sure a PD bunkering strategy is possible at this stage of the game, he would cripple himself pretty badly economically if he tries that... and all the giants have to do is go around it. He does have a 5 province border with them afterall.

The best chance Ulm has at this stage against Jotun is to use pikeneers as cannon foddler. The pikeneers have a 6 range pike, which will give them the chance to repel the giant's assault. (Which is also why your guardian is doing okay against the giants, they have 4 range halberds. FYI: The giants uses 3 range jotun swords.)


If you can stall a bit for researching, try:

Destruction (Alt 4), is probably the most useful spell to help your guys hurt the giants.

Strength of giants (Enc 3) could also come in handy for the same reason. Although destruction is more effective for your situation (due to survivability of your troops vs his), it also takes longer to research. Not to mention, of course, they are best used together if you can pull it off.

Fire Arrows (Enc 4) is nice if you can get your smiths to use them (give them some extra fire gems to boost the levels), but keep in mind that you should hire normal archers or longbowmans (if you can) for this tactic. The crossbows and arbalests shoots too slowly to take full advantage of this spell.

If you're willing to sacrifice some earth gems you can also try Curse of Stones (alt 4, same as destruction), making his giants tired faster (although not as effective as it could be given their MR).

By itself, Magma bolt (evo 3) isn't too great... but if you combine it with destruction, it could do some damage to the giants...

Lastly, Legion of Steel (Con 3) isn't worth the trouble, if your troops gets hit, they will probably die due to the giant's strength.


Ideally, a battle should have the giants wielding length 3 jotun swords going against length 6 pikes. Since you can pack many of your guys into one square, and there's a pretty good chance the giants will tire themselves out attacking and being repelled, you will get in some serious hits after a few rounds. Even if he does beat you, he'll take some hard losses, which is much harder for him to replace than for you.




Note, edited to remove misinfo, I was a little confused there... no sense confusing everyone else with it. Thanks for pointing that out thejeff.

[thejeff]

Note that this isn't Niflehiem, so the Jarls aren't there and abusive blesses aren't as much of problem.

ME Jotunheim is still tough to fight with Ulm, but at least the early SC Jarls aren't a threat.

[Kalin]

Doh... what the heck was I thinking (prolly too many complaints on nif), my sincere apologies. The above strategy (using pikeneers) works just fine on the giants of Jotunheim, perhaps even more so. To be honests, I've never had that much trouble with Jotunheim's giants (which is probably why I was thinking Nif all the way when you mentioned a giant army).

The only thing you have to be careful about Jotunheim is the Vaetti and Moose Riders, they are stealthy, so you might not see them before it's too late. The Vaetti are size 1, and can fill in between the giants, which might be a problem, for most troops because they use spears (range 4, most get repelled). However, your pikeneers still out range them, and chances are, they will also one-shot them in the repulsion process. The Moose riders are only trouble for low protection troops, and yours is well covered, so they will probably end up hurting their own troops more than yours from afar, and as calvary they are bleh.

[thejeff]

I haven't had much luck relying on pikeneers and repelling.
That's just 1 damage and the accompanying morale check right?

It probably depends on which giants you're up against.
The militia run from their own shadow. Some of the others will just ignore the pinpricks and smash the silly little people with the long sticks.

[Kalin]

Yeah, but that's 1 wasted attack, and there's only 1 giant per square due to his size, so you just got 3 chance to hit him back. When shields and armor does nothing, repel is the about the only thing you've got left... ^_^;; all of Jotun's troops morale is generally 12-13, and they don't have that great of a defense (mostly prot and HP), so unless he's accumulated a ton of experience, that means you've got a decent chance of negating the damage.

In general, I've found that pikeneers are subpar when compared to heavy shielded troops for tanking size 3 and below enemies. However, when you are fighting size 4 and above who doesn't trample, pikeneers shines. Usually large creature have massize strength and will kill you in one hit regardless of armor, so the ability to repel and negate their attack works great. There's the question of the Vaetti in between the giants, but those guys shouldn't be able to scratch Ulm's armor. Pikeneers also happen to be one of Ulm's cheapest national troop, so it's pretty good for the price of a foddler.

[Sandman]

Ulmish pikeneers also have 11 morale, compared to 10 for their other infantry.