Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont think the numbers are quite that unanimous (not that it would matter even if it were). And in case you didnt, put me in that othr group

I think that threads like this collect people who agree with it so I wouldnt measure the responses that way. Plus you can always write off new players (no offense meant to anyone) but it seems that every nation they try during the learning curve ends up striking them as a problem because the balance is in the next nation they try.

Remember that in this game, the balance isnt between each nation. Its more of a rock-paper-scissors balance. As long as there is a nation which can beat a nation, then there is balance. We might not like it but it aint broke.

[Kuritza]

To be honest, new players dont find Vanheim that evil. In our community, we have quite some newcomers who keep advising 'its ok, just build more heavy infantry' or 'use mages'. Its old players who started with Dominions 1 think that dual-blessed vanheim is the most scary nation there is at the moment. Myself included.
As for the rock-paper-scissors - to be honest, I am yet to find a nation that doesnt have problems with Vanheim. Even if there is one, its one out of how many? Something's wrong with it.

[Gandalf Parker]

Most of the "problems" with Vanheim seem to be problems going head to head. Most of the answers to it seem to be defense, magic, stealth, etc. If the same tactics are being used then there will always be a "usually wins". I wouldnt want all nations to be balanced to where army-vs-army is the designing factor. The nations I most like to play do their "balancing" by using othr tactics than just my army is bigger than your army.

[Meglobob]

Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.

Its all been discussed before and its always players who are fairly new to the game who complain. Look on defeating those nations as a challenge.

Neither nation has come anywhere near winning any MP I have played in and I have played alot. Those games are on 15 prov/player maps. Small 1 on 1 blitz games is a different story and Vanheim/Hellheim walk over most other nations but I do not play those so no problem for me.

[Teraswaerto]

Meglobob said:
Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.

I don't know why for example EA Vanheim would suck at mid or end game. Their magics are not bad. Air and Earth. Granted, they are capital only, but that doesn't make their magic power weak, and the troops are still deadly as raiders even if they can be beaten by high research magics.

It proves nothing that they have won no MP games we know of. There are so many variables at play there.

[Meglobob]

Teraswaerto said:

I don't know why for example EA Vanheim would suck at mid or end game. Their magics are not bad. Air and Earth. Granted, they are capital only, but that doesn't make their magic power weak, and the troops are still deadly as raiders even if they can be beaten by high research magics.

It proves nothing that they have won no MP games we know of. There are so many variables at play there.

Teraswaerto here is Tyrants MP game winners so far, its really the only concrete evidence we after go about the balance of nations:-

.5 for joint win.

EA-
Caelum- 1
Sauromatia- 1
Tien Chi 1

MA-
Pythium 1
Ulm .5
Machaka .5
Man .5
Ermor 1
Vanheim 1
Jotunheim 1
Pangaea 1

LA-
Argatha 1
Mictlan 1

As you can see Hellheim and Vanheim have NO WINS in EA and 1 Vanheim win in MA. If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.

[BigDisAwesome]

If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.

Or all of these people that are arguing that they're overpowered could be teaming up on them in MP.

[thejeff]

Except that they tend to get ganged up, since they're perceived as unbalanced.

And given the perception of early game strength and late game weakness, I'm not certain, as I said above, that a nation that bumps off 2-3 neighbors and then is brought down when its strengths no longer apply is really balanced.

Finally, and somewhat tongue in cheek, that's not a statistically significant sample. Given the number of nations, even if Vanheim was twice as likely to win as any other nation, the observed distribution would not be unlikely.

[calmon]

Meglobob said:

Teraswaerto here is Tyrants MP game winners so far, its really the only concrete evidence we after go about the balance of nations:-

.5 for joint win.

EA-
Caelum- 1
Sauromatia- 1
Tien Chi 1

MA-
Pythium 1
Ulm .5
Machaka .5
Man .5
Ermor 1
Vanheim 1
Jotunheim 1
Pangaea 1

LA-
Argatha 1
Mictlan 1

As you can see Hellheim and Vanheim have NO WINS in EA and 1 Vanheim win in MA. If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.

Sorry but this states says who win the game but not how! It says nothing about alliances of several players to defeat one nation or equal things.

I never played vanheim/helheim in a mp game but i've some good tactics in mind with the glamour stealth troops. In my mp games i've defeated vanheim twice but the players used the vans as a simple (very strong) combat unit. They missed the point that this things are the best national stealth troops.

[lch]

I think the issue here is that unexperienced people suffer extraordinary defeats compared to normal combat unless they develop and use "anti" tactics as somebody said (even if in some cases, it's just: "use magic"), instead of being able to just use a naive "My army is bigger than your army" assessment of the situation like they normally use to do. I don't want to generalize and say that everybody who says that Vans/Hels are unbalanced (hello? earth/nature bless Niefel? Ermor?) is an unexperienced newb, but that's the conclusion that they usually come to and they get exited about here on the forums.